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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 9, 2024 19:58:11 GMT
I think you’re missing my wider point but seeing as you ask, when did you last see a Shakespeare play performed in Elizabethan costume? |
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Post by traveller15 on Jan 9, 2024 20:28:28 GMT
I haven't seen Shakespeare in long enough you can have the point if it matters so much. And I got your wider point. You seem to have ignored mine. I'm bored with this anyway. It was an observation, not a serve.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 9, 2024 20:40:02 GMT
Understood, thanks!
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jan 9, 2024 20:45:59 GMT
You know what Patti LuPone said after finally seeing the original production of this show? It’s boring. And I can only reflect my experience seeing the Glenn Close concert production and agree with her. I think what Jamie Lloyd has done with some of these touches is just try to make it entertaining and lighten the mood. ESPECIALLY with this highly minimalist practically monochrome production we need a bit of a break sometimes!!! I would suggest that some of the light touches are meant to be more than JUST a cheap laugh - the twerking is definitely part of the character and scene, as is the idea of Norma’s first husband idolising a photo of her in her more youthful prime. The ALW cut out probably more of a cheap laugh. I don’t mind though, I’d rather be entertained than bored. I’m confused. She was IN the original production. ? |
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Post by apubleed on Jan 9, 2024 20:54:30 GMT
You know what Patti LuPone said after finally seeing the original production of this show? It’s boring. And I can only reflect my experience seeing the Glenn Close concert production and agree with her. I think what Jamie Lloyd has done with some of these touches is just try to make it entertaining and lighten the mood. ESPECIALLY with this highly minimalist practically monochrome production we need a bit of a break sometimes!!! I would suggest that some of the light touches are meant to be more than JUST a cheap laugh - the twerking is definitely part of the character and scene, as is the idea of Norma’s first husband idolising a photo of her in her more youthful prime. The ALW cut out probably more of a cheap laugh. I don’t mind though, I’d rather be entertained than bored. Did she actually see the original production after she left or was this her reflecting on the show herself? It's not abnormal for her to piss all over ALW after she's left a production of his. She dissed Evita too, yet still finds a way to sing Don't Cry for Me Argentina in concert and talk about how special she was for singing it in the original key and how those who've followed after haven't and blah, blah, blah... I'd love for her to sit and hear Nicole singing the hell out of this score - in the original, high notes... Yes she saw it, details from her Memior below - which I highly recommend everyone in this thread read the Sunset saga is VERY juicy. “On closing night, I entered through the lobby of the Adelphi Theatre, which was a new experience for me. As soon as I walked in, the first three people I saw were Trevor Nunn, Christopher Hampton, and Anthony Powell. I walked right up to them—I think I actually punched Anthony Powell in the arm, not the person I should have punched hello. I was very nervous, as you can imagine. They turned around and looked at me as though they had seen a ghost. Trevor turned white. I took my seat with Matt in the orchestra and started watching Sunset Boulevard. It was boring and slow. The black, white, and gray set didn’t help the production, in my opinion. At the intermission I saw David Caddick, and I actually said to him, “David, were we this boring?” He said no. Clearly the show had gone downhill in the two or three years it had been running, as shows can do. That’s not unusual.I went to the closing night party for a while. When I talked with Trevor, he said the show didn’t deserve to close. I just looked at him and said, “But, Trevor, it was so boring.” He gave me a stupefied look. Well, it was, Trevor. I walked away knowing that whatever was wrong with the show wasn’t entirely my problem. I may not have been the ideal Norma for a lot of people, but Sunset Boulevard was a deeply flawed musical—with me or without me.” |
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Post by apubleed on Jan 9, 2024 21:21:33 GMT
I don't see how anybody can consider it in character for a faded silent film star to be tweking in 1950, but OK. Well the production is clearly not always literally set in 1950 - it's very abstract. It's a kind of meta/hyper reality that is approximating what a faded silent film star of the 1950s could feel like with applying modern sensibilities. And the modern sensibilities in the context of Nicole's interpretation of the character involves a lot of modern sassiness, self-obsession with looks (see: social media), dress and yes indeed, twerking. Theatre is an abstract poetic interpretation of storytelling not a film, which is more like a photograph. Unless you can suspend disbelief enough and buy this directorial concept of the production, I can easily see why it wouldn't work for you. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 9, 2024 21:47:01 GMT
I don't see how anybody can consider it in character for a faded silent film star to be tweking in 1950, but OK. I'm obsessed with this take. A silent film star in 1950 would not be twerking, but what would the abused and mentally ill faded star of 2024 be doing? The bear's comparison to Shakespeare is so apt, almost every modern mainstream production tries to make it relevant to a modern audience by setting it during, or using the aesthetic of a more modern period. "But Othello wouldn't have a mobile phone!" isn't the sort of thing you hear people saying as you're walking out. I think it's totally fair to say you didn't like this aspect of the show, you preferred it in a more literal incarnation. I'm absolutely in the camp that found the traditional Sunset a little boring and found this the most refreshing thing I saw last year. |
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Post by traveller15 on Jan 9, 2024 22:00:20 GMT
Andrew, thanks for your reply and genuine attempt to understand another point of view without lecturing or defensiveness. Everybody knows loads of classics have been transposed to a different time period, but to the best of my knowledge, the whole show went along for the ride. My problem is really with the inconsistency of the approach throughout this Sunset. One minute it's 2024 inside jokes, the next we're back in 1950 and an abandoned silent film star. It just doesn't twerk for me. I loved 98% of what they did with this production. Having seen the mother ship back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, to my huge surprise I far prefer most of what Lloyd did here and think Scherzinger may well have out Luponed Lupone (thanking God she doesn't know where I live, having said that.) But some of the wink-wink nudge felt like wanking because I can, and fell flat for me. I feel like I'm screening the Ordeal of Joan of Arc for all of you again so I'm done.
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Post by 141920grm on Jan 10, 2024 5:50:42 GMT
It just doesn't twerk for me. 🤣🤣🤣 she is the greatest quote of all |
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Post by BoOverall on Jan 10, 2024 6:52:08 GMT
I wonder what Patti thinks…. Actually, I think we know  Patti looks just like the woman at the fish counter at my local Waitrose. And I am not messing with her on Fish Fridays! I loved her Norma and would pay good money to see her and Nicole doing a Sunset-off……..on the condition that Patti throws in a few twerks and Nicole adopts a few strangled vowelisms! |
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Post by shownut on Jan 10, 2024 7:16:09 GMT
All I can say about Patti is:
1) Immensely talented but often miscast. The only thing worse than her Nellie Lovett or Joanne was her Norma Desmond. But all is forgiven thanks to her wondrous Mama Rose which was a knock-out.
2) Her bitterness and bad taste do her no favours. Her diatribes on ALW and EVITA are remarkably tasteless given that it was the composer and show that gave her a life-changing break. A small ounce of gratitude would go quite far.
3) Patti is correct that the closing version of SUNSET in London was boring. The only Norma worse that her own was Petula's who played the role like a dotty grandma - no tension whatsoever.
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Post by ceebee on Jan 10, 2024 11:21:30 GMT
ALW must have chuckled about the chief antagonist in "School of Rock" being called Patty... He already had a muse for that part.
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Post by distantcousin on Jan 10, 2024 13:09:09 GMT
All I can say about Patti is: 1) Immensely talented but often miscast. The only thing worse than her Nellie Lovett or Joanne was her Norma Desmond. But all is forgiven thanks to her wondrous Mama Rose which was a knock-out. 2) Her bitterness and bad taste do her no favours. Her diatribes on ALW and EVITA are remarkably tasteless given that it was the composer and show that gave her a life-changing break. A small ounce of gratitude would go quite far. 3) Patti is correct that the closing version of SUNSET in London was boring. The only Norma worse that her own was Petula's who played the role like a dotty grandma - no tension whatsoever. Thanks for clarifying with your point 3. I'd never thought about this before, but assumed the closing Norma and Joe were "Pet" Clark and Graham Bickley. I booked tickets just after the closure was announced and saw them in it. |
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Post by danb on Jan 10, 2024 13:43:41 GMT
My memories of Pet & Bickley was of all the grey being removed from the story; there was no way that this handsome young man would ever fancy an old lady whoever she was, so MUST just have been with her for the money & kudos. No ‘being touched by her folly’, just calculating how to offload her of some bucks.
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Post by distantcousin on Jan 10, 2024 13:57:32 GMT
My memories of Pet & Bickley was of all the grey being removed from the story; there was no way that this handsome young man would ever fancy an old lady whoever she was, so MUST just have been with her for the money & kudos. No ‘being touched by her folly’, just calculating how to offload her of some bucks. Yes. Pet was in her 60's by this point, and although Graham Bickley was almost 40 (the upper limit of most Joe's) the age difference was very "pronounced" :/ |
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Post by theatreian on Jan 10, 2024 15:16:23 GMT
Pet was in her 60's by this point, Although Petula has played the role more than any other having done the role more than any other actor. SUNSET BOULEVARD November 17, 1998--April 9, 2000, US Tour January 9, 1996--April 5, 1997, Adelphi Theatre, West End, London, UK September 2, 1995--October 14, 1995, Adelphi Theatre, West End, London, UK (Six-week run, subbing for Elaine Paige) Without a rest from her grueling Blood Brothers tour in the USA, Petula was asked to play Norma Desmond in Andrew Loyd Webber's Sunset Boulevard in London's West End. Petula thought she wouldn't be right for the part, but fortunately Trevor Nunn was able to convince her that she'd be "marvellous." Trevor honored Petula at a "This Is Your Life" taping (Petula's third) by stating unequivocally, "Petula is the real thing!" Petula performed in Sunset for what everyone believed would be the final time before a packed house in London's West End on April 5, 1997. The following year, Petula (missing "Norma") embarked on an 18 month U.S. tour and became the longest running Norma to date. |
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Post by steve10086 on Jan 10, 2024 18:09:16 GMT
Pet was in her 60's by this point, Although Petula has played the role more than any other having done the role more than any other actor. SUNSET BOULEVARD November 17, 1998--April 9, 2000, US Tour January 9, 1996--April 5, 1997, Adelphi Theatre, West End, London, UK September 2, 1995--October 14, 1995, Adelphi Theatre, West End, London, UK (Six-week run, subbing for Elaine Paige) Without a rest from her grueling Blood Brothers tour in the USA, Petula was asked to play Norma Desmond in Andrew Loyd Webber's Sunset Boulevard in London's West End. Petula thought she wouldn't be right for the part, but fortunately Trevor Nunn was able to convince her that she'd be "marvellous." Trevor honored Petula at a "This Is Your Life" taping (Petula's third) by stating unequivocally, "Petula is the real thing!" Petula performed in Sunset for what everyone believed would be the final time before a packed house in London's West End on April 5, 1997. The following year, Petula (missing "Norma") embarked on an 18 month U.S. tour and became the longest running Norma to date. Quanity is very different to quality. And Trevor Nunn is hardly going to go on This Is Your Life and say “you were too old and your voice was knackered” is he? 🙄 |
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Post by traveller15 on Jan 10, 2024 18:55:44 GMT
. The only thing worse than her Nellie Lovett or Joanne was her Norma Desmond. In fairness though (and I'm not sentimental about LuPone, though she's all kinds of fun) wasn't that down in part (or all) to Trevor Nunn's directing, who also later thought Petula Clark was marvellous? (As a piece of marketing strategy, maybe.) LuPone went through the show before they seemed to really settle on what they wanted it to be in the 90s. The first ending - how nobody knew that fell flat I don't know. |
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jan 10, 2024 20:37:41 GMT
Petula was dreadful as Norma. And has been everyone I’ve seen her on stage. At least she’s consistent.
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Post by danb on Jan 10, 2024 21:17:10 GMT
It isn’t a mistake I’ve made twice. Luckily Jill Martin was on the first time I went to see Petula as Norma, so that was nice. The next time however…👵🐸
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Post by theatreian on Jan 10, 2024 22:29:45 GMT
Quanity is very different to quality. I see that but also there's the point it she was that awful why keep casting her? |
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Post by theatreian on Jan 10, 2024 22:33:14 GMT
Petula was dreadful as Norma. I won't get into this again but I disagree. Have seen others who were not great. Petula when I saw her in Sunset gave in my view a true representation as to how I perceived Norma. She is much an actress as a singer looking at her career. We will agree to disagree again!! |
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Post by saral on Jan 10, 2024 22:34:18 GMT
I had very very low expectations before seeing Pet after seeing her murder songs in promotional appearances on TV at the time, but decided i had to see it one more time...she wasn't actually as bad as i was expecting
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Post by bobbievanhusen on Jan 11, 2024 7:57:15 GMT
The only Norma worse that her own was Petula's who played the role like a dotty grandma - no tension whatsoever. Then you couldn't have seen Rita Moreno as Norma, when she covered for a 3 month holiday period. She didn't have the voice for it. I saw it early on in her run and there were a few times when I giggled - there were moments when it was like watching 'Googie Gomez in Sunset Boulevard' I believe she was the only London Norma to not also play it on Broadway? If you have never seen Rita Moreno in the film 'The Ritz' I highly recommend it. |
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Post by Sven on Jan 11, 2024 7:57:41 GMT
As I said earlier, Petula almost ruined my love for Sunset. The score was also transposed down a lot to "fit" her voice. When you compare that to Patti (who's upper register I don't really "like" - as in find it beautiful - but still find most exhilarating), it was almost ridiculous. Anyway, give me Betty or rather Elaine any time. Goosebumps the whole evening when she was on, and a definitive Norma for me.
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