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Post by inthenose on Apr 5, 2022 17:42:18 GMT
crowblack you are just wrong on this. Physical violence is physical violence - and a ‘slap’ can still cause serious damage, if the person slapping is stronger than the person being slapped. If Will Smith slapped *you* he’d probably knock you over! You should not want a world where men feel justified in slapping people who say something they dislike because in that world it might happen to you - you are certainly opinionated enough to say things some men will dislike or be offended by! - and you’d end up much worse off. I’ve literally just seen a clip of video on Twitter of a tennis player slapping their opponent at the end of a match, after shaking his hand, because he lost. This is not a norm we want to encourage!! Well, of course a man slapping a woman is wrong! That is absolutely not what we are talking about here though. We're talking about one middle aged man slapping another middle aged man, both of similar build, over a clearly hurtful personal insult made in front of millions about someone's body. It's not like hitting a woman or hitting someone simply because of a defeat in a tennis match, which I've never heard the like of and is totally inexcusable. Sorry, you've lost me. I think anybody slapping anybody is wrong, especially given the circumstances involved in this case. Why bring sex into this, in the bolded part? I'm sure this isn't what you intended, but you made it sound uncomfortably like you were specifying what kind of physical assault is "wrong" and which is "understandable", depending on whether it was a woman hitting a man, or a man hitting a woman. Could you clarify, please?
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 5, 2022 18:08:33 GMT
Thing is, you are just wrong on what is expected as a film/TV awards ceremony attendee. Yes, you are expected to ‘be a good sport’ and take a joke aimed at you. It’s the price you pay for being insanely rich and successful, which you by default are when you are the butt of a joke at an awards ceremony. Having a thick skin is a professional requirement when you place yourself in the public eye the way Jada Pickett-Smith has. There were plenty of other jokes made at the expense of attendees. Also there is no evidence that Chris Rock was aware of the alopecia diagnosis. Not everyone follows the ins and outs of the lives of the rich and famous. He appears to have been making a joke about a hairstyle. Something that has been done many times about male and female celebs.
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Post by kathryn on Apr 5, 2022 19:27:54 GMT
If Will had not intervened, and Jada had taken to Twitter after the ceremony with a heartfelt explanation of why the joke was in poor taste, we’d be living in a very different timeline right now, and I doubt not that Chris Rock would be pledging to ‘do better’, and the Academy would be reconsidering the role of Oscars host.
Will Smith lost the chance for his wife to claim the moral high ground and make real change, by his actions. If you don’t like such jokes you really should be blaming him for an own goal, Crowblack - you are likely to hear more of them now, as people push back for the right of comedians to offend.
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Post by wiggymess on Apr 5, 2022 21:18:35 GMT
Find it really unnerving this kind of talk of censorship. Always ultimately comes down to the idea that someone's decision of whether a piece of art (be it a joke, a video game or TV/film - all of which have been mentioned) is offensive or goes beyond a certain accepted line, when we all know art is completely subjective, that is the point of it. We've seen it repeatedly with this Government that they believe they are the judge as to what is morally acceptable and what type of jokes/shows are to be allowed airtime on the BBC. It deeply deeply troubles me.
Also find it very confusing that there's talk of white male privilege in the same breath as the promotion of the idea that it's perfectly fine for a woman to hit a man. What a bizarre contradiction to make.
Personally I think it's clearly, clearly wrong what happened at the Oscars (and judging by Smith's statements, so does he). I don't expect his career to be too damaged in the long term and neither do I particularly think it should be. A suspension should be suffice to send the message that it is absolutely not acceptable behaviour.
Another thing to consider is the safety of performers. Comedians in particular but also others. Are we now to say that if someone deems something offensive it is OK to attack a performer?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 11:00:36 GMT
There are certain jokes which might be told in a club or on TV years ago which we would now find distasteful but where the line is drawn in that middle ground is always merky.
What would have been the fallout if Jada herself had walked up and slapped Chris?
I'm sure she'd have got far more support than Will would have done and Chris been seen less as the victim.
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Post by lynette on Apr 7, 2022 11:10:57 GMT
I haven’t seen this mentioned anywhere but I’m wondering if hair is a particularly sensitive thing in Hollywood/America? Is it the only part of a face or body that invites comment in this way? I’m thinking how Black styles provoke comment and often censure, a kind of prejudice. Is there something else underlying a comment on hair and/or the lack of it? He couldn’t have said anything else about her looks, could he? So does hair represent something, power (Old Testament Samson’s story, v old, very potent) in a away that is difficult to express. Just musing….
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Post by kathryn on Apr 7, 2022 12:08:10 GMT
Bald jokes have long been a thing, whatever your gender or colour. Just ask Elton John!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 14:30:57 GMT
Elton has made jokes about his hair over the years to be fair.
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Post by sph on Apr 7, 2022 15:09:51 GMT
It wasn't the most pleasant joke, but certainly not the worst. He compared her to Demi Moore, not Matt Lucas.
I think Smith's reaction would have been the same regardless of the type of joke. It wasn't about the joke, it was about being the "big macho man" etc.
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Post by wiggymess on Apr 7, 2022 15:51:28 GMT
It wasn't the most pleasant joke, but certainly not the worst. He compared her to Demi Moore, not Matt Lucas. I think Smith's reaction would have been the same regardless of the type of joke. It wasn't about the joke, it was about being the "big macho man" etc. If we're talking hypotheticals then I tend to agree with this. He shouted to keep his wife's name out his mouth. Any joke about her (which SHE found offensive) was going to provoke the same response I'd imagine. And as for this constant "if Jada had hit him" idea - reading through this thread you can see that some people clearly find violence by a woman towards a man acceptable in certain circumstances (something I find repulsive having had a male friend who was a victim of domestic violence) so yes, I'm sure there would be plenty of sympathisers had that happened, although I get the feeling it's much the same people who think what Will did was OK.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 17:27:43 GMT
I think a lot more people would have sided with Jada smacking CR one than Will doing it. Can anyone remember on a US Talkshow in the mid 1970's Shelley Winters ran back on and emptied a drink over Olivier Reed's head as they had been having an arguement about sexism and he had told her to shut up. Ollie just carried on talking and didn't react with the incident although pouring alcohol over his head was like giving Popeye some spinnach
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Post by wiggymess on Apr 7, 2022 18:10:07 GMT
I think a lot more people would have sided with Jada smacking CR one than Will doing it. Can anyone remember on a US Talkshow in the mid 1970's Shelley Winters ran back on and emptied a drink over Olivier Reed's head as they had been having an arguement about sexism and he had told her to shut up. Ollie just carried on talking and didn't react with the incident although pouring alcohol over his head was like giving Popeye some spinnach So now we're making a comparison with a completely different situation where someone reacted in a completely different way to a completely different thing happening to them in order to justify something that didn't happen? What a mess. Would you say it would be OK for Jada to have got up on stage and hit Chris Rock?
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Post by kathryn on Apr 7, 2022 19:05:55 GMT
Elton has made jokes about his hair over the years to be fair. Well of course he has - he knows that people like you more if you are ‘a good sport’ and can take a joke at your expense. Even if it stings.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2022 11:05:10 GMT
Elton has made jokes about his hair over the years to be fair. Well of course he has - he knows that people like you more if you are ‘a good sport’ and can take a joke at your expense. Even if it stings. Elton has been in the public eye for over 50 years. Ironically his first big hit was in the charts when I was born and there were as many stories about his hairline as his private life over the years with is hair transplants and wearing of hats. I think it was in the early 1990's he settled on his current hairpiece wig style and now we almost forget about it. I wonder how many younger people might see something like the "Don't Go Breaking My Heart" promo film and suddenly notice something different about his hair having only known the wig era Elton and seen him wearing his baseball caps and strawhats from the 1980's. If people suddenly change their appearance then comments will be made in the press if you are a public figure.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 8, 2022 19:12:06 GMT
Smith has been banned from all Academy events for 10 years.
He keeps his Oscar
Not sure if he can be nominated in the future. But we shall see as the details emerge
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Post by sfsusan on Apr 8, 2022 21:40:53 GMT
Smith has been banned from all Academy events for 10 years. That's an interesting approach. He doesn't lose the ability to work*, doesn't lose the ability to be recognized/honored for that work, but he can't embarrass the Academy in public. *I wonder if him not being able to attend the Oscars (or perhaps even do any Oscar-related campaigning for a film) will reduce his marketability. Aren't actors generally obliged to do promo tours around award season? Would those be considered Academy events?
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Post by jojo on Apr 9, 2022 7:24:25 GMT
I've made no secret that I think Smith was very much in the wrong and there's no excuse for it, but ten years seems a long time. I was expecting it to be five or so.
I wonder if it's because the Academy are themselves trying to compensate for messing up on the night.
Though I see the news is saying that he can still be nominated for OSCARS, just not attend the events, though I imagine that would be awkward.
I think Smith is more than established enough as an actor that I don't think it will have a huge impact on his marketability beyond the fall-out from the original incident. Though a return to the show sooner would be a useful part of his image rehabilitation, and if he's supposed to be the main promoter of a film that is in with a shout of other OSCARS it might make them less likely.
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Post by wiggymess on Apr 9, 2022 8:51:29 GMT
I've made no secret that I think Smith was very much in the wrong and there's no excuse for it, but ten years seems a long time. I was expecting it to be five or so. I wonder if it's because the Academy are themselves trying to compensate for messing up on the night. Though I see the news is saying that he can still be nominated for OSCARS, just not attend the events, though I imagine that would be awkward. I think Smith is more than established enough as an actor that I don't think it will have a huge impact on his marketability beyond the fall-out from the original incident. Though a return to the show sooner would be a useful part of his image rehabilitation, and if he's supposed to be the main promoter of a film that is in with a shout of other OSCARS it might make them less likely. A lot longer than I was expecting too - I thought maybe 2 or 3 years but this definitely sends the message that it won't be tolerated. I wonder if it will be reduced in due course. He'll still get acting work, as he should IMO (he's still a fine actor and I think most people who disagreed with his actions didn't want him "cancelled") but this surely will affect the type of roles he'll be offered? These days it's easy to spot films which are gunning for awards season and it would be a liability to cast him.
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Post by kathryn on Apr 9, 2022 11:57:18 GMT
Yes, but on the other hand he’s been doing awards-bait films for years ‘cos he wanted that Oscar, and now that he has it he can start doing the kind of films that never get nominated again, which he always excelled at. Most notably, comedy and action films. The films that tend to make actual money at the box office.
So it’s not necessarily the worst thing in the world for his career.
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Post by wiggymess on Apr 9, 2022 12:50:06 GMT
Yes, but on the other hand he’s been doing awards-bait films for years ‘cos he wanted that Oscar, and now that he has it he can start doing the kind of films that never get nominated again, which he always excelled at. Most notably, comedy and action films. The films that tend to make actual money at the box office. So it’s not necessarily the worst thing in the world for his career. I guess that depends on how you define career. I would have thought he'll be gutted to have to go back to only making those types of movies, but that is a complete guess on my part of course. He's a bankable star in pretty much anything he's in and obviously doesn't need the money, so his career in that sense (box office and personal earnings) will probably be fine, but I can only imagine how demoralising it will be to have to take such a huge step backwards and be limited in the roles he'll now be offered (nothing traditionally seen as "Oscar bait" I'd guess). Sad to think where his career could have gone vs where it seems like it will now go. Whole situation is very sad really. No winners at all here. I hope he gets the help he needs to resolve his issues and I really hope he surrounds himself with the right people. I wonder if those who agreed with his actions (and are now very quiet) think it was all worth it. I doubt he does.
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Post by lynette on Apr 9, 2022 21:28:47 GMT
And the other guy, will he be invited to present again next year?
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Post by wiggymess on Apr 9, 2022 22:38:49 GMT
And the other guy, will he be invited to present again next year? The comedian who made a joke and was assaulted? Yes quite possibly, because the academy clearly have sense and understand there is a difference between telling a joke (in poor taste admittedly) and physically attacking someone. Obviously.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 9, 2022 22:43:01 GMT
He has hosted the ceremony before. He may well be asked to do so again.
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Post by jojo on Apr 10, 2022 7:40:06 GMT
Yes, but on the other hand he’s been doing awards-bait films for years ‘cos he wanted that Oscar, and now that he has it he can start doing the kind of films that never get nominated again, which he always excelled at. Most notably, comedy and action films. The films that tend to make actual money at the box office. So it’s not necessarily the worst thing in the world for his career. I guess that depends on how you define career. I would have thought he'll be gutted to have to go back to only making those types of movies, but that is a complete guess on my part of course. He's a bankable star in pretty much anything he's in and obviously doesn't need the money, so his career in that sense (box office and personal earnings) will probably be fine, but I can only imagine how demoralising it will be to have to take such a huge step backwards and be limited in the roles he'll now be offered (nothing traditionally seen as "Oscar bait" I'd guess). Sad to think where his career could have gone vs where it seems like it will now go. Whole situation is very sad really. No winners at all here. I hope he gets the help he needs to resolve his issues and I really hope he surrounds himself with the right people. I wonder if those who agreed with his actions (and are now very quiet) think it was all worth it. I doubt he does. It's obviously going to hit his career, in so much that being a Hollywood superstar is 95% image, but how much was already dented by his actions, and how much worse it will be because he can't do as much schmoozing is less obvious. I'd assume he'd want to keep a low profile at all of the awards ceremonies next year anyway. He gets to keep his award, which is right IMO. So all of his future projects can stick 'with Academy Award Winner Will Smith' on the poster - if they dare. Having won one Oscar, I'm not sure it's that important that he is seen to be in the running for more. It's Graham Norton I feel sorry for. He usually likes to make a big deal out of returning guests who have picked up an Oscar, but it's going to end up hanging over every interview he does and make it tricky to talk about his career highlight without everyone immediately thinking about his career lowlight. That's probably all fine if he is talking about more serious subjects for more serious films, but will be an elephant in the room for the foreseeable if he's doing promotion by simply being a fun guy on chat shows.
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Post by sfsusan on Apr 10, 2022 19:16:14 GMT
That's probably all fine if he is talking about more serious subjects for more serious films, That's an interesting point. I was wondering if this might give him an opportunity (if he wishes) to pivot to art house/independent films. That would also give him a way to frame the change as moving toward something positive rather than being pushed out of his old career by something negative.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2022 10:53:51 GMT
If there is no ban on him being nominated then that is a big plus for Will. Not being able to attend doesn't really affect his career he's been a leading man for over 25 years, has won and kept his Oscar. The big test will be how well his films perform going forward, what sort of roles will he get offered etc.
A lot of actors don't attend awards ceremonies and the SAG Awards I think were much scaled back this year. Lets see how this affects Will's invites to big white/black tie/society gatherings?
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Post by sfsusan on Apr 11, 2022 11:04:33 GMT
If there is no ban on him being nominated then that is a big plus for Will. There might not be an official ban on him being nominated, but I wonder if the Academy will circulate an unofficial 'don't say his name' directive. Or voters might self-censor to avoid any possible controversy from him being nominated or winning. Time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2022 12:39:18 GMT
How films are sometimes advertised "Starring Academy Award winner" or "Academy Award nominee" usually when the film isn't that great. Would there be a ban on them being able to do this for Will's future films?
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Post by jojo on Apr 11, 2022 13:31:35 GMT
I don't see how. He's keeping his Oscar. He's still an Academy Award winner. He's no longer a member of the Academy, so as long as they don't say 'starring Academy member ...' they're fine.
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