1,187 posts
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Post by theatrelover123 on Oct 6, 2022 20:17:09 GMT
Ahhh I love that Sheffield Theatre in London
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Post by wardrobemistress76 on Nov 21, 2022 20:16:41 GMT
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Post by cezbear on Nov 21, 2022 21:58:55 GMT
Seriously.
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6,318 posts
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Post by Jon on Nov 21, 2022 22:03:00 GMT
I seriously thought it was going to be Sheffield pulling Miss Saigon
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Post by mrbarnaby on Nov 21, 2022 22:11:20 GMT
That theatre company sound a bit stupid. Byee!
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Post by FairyGodmother on Nov 21, 2022 22:51:59 GMT
"Based on Pucciniโs 1904 opera Madama Butterfly, it tells the story of a teenage Vietnamese sex worker who falls in love with an American GI and becomes pregnant, but is abandoned by him when the city falls."
Why give away a massive plot point?! Especially when the rest of the paragraph is over-simplified to the point of not really being correct.
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260 posts
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Post by kyvai on Nov 22, 2022 7:23:35 GMT
Iโm not sure it counts as a spoiler when the story is 120 years old? Thatโs all in the first act of Madame Butterfly. Yes I agree this theatre company do come across as quite silly, even written up by the grauniad whom one would imagine might be sympathetic to their point of view. But they are entitled to that point of view,, I respect them sticking to their principles - it must be very important to them, it doesnโt seem that their play (a new play) is currently being produced anywhere else from a quick google, hopefully they can find another venue that meets their standards. Reading their website it looks like theyโve done some really interesting projects in the past. I found this a great response from the Miss Saigon creative team. www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/news/programming-miss-saigon
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1,871 posts
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Post by distantcousin on Nov 22, 2022 9:07:36 GMT
When did Miss Saigon start being so "problematic"?
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 22, 2022 9:08:04 GMT
When did Miss Saigon start being so "problematic"? Literally when it opened
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 9:58:28 GMT
I think the culture has moved on from 'yes the themes are difficult but surely we sympathise most with Kim and condemn US actions' to 'when can we have South Asian / South East Asian characters who elicit more than sympathy?'. New Earth say in their statement that they understand the production is going for a 'new reading' of Miss Saigon, but they have to make decisions for their production and staff right now, and can't know in advance that they're going to be comfortable to be co-programmed with whatever the outcome is. I think they expressed that well - leaving space for the production to be revelatory, but frankly believing the problems they have with the material are too 'baked in'.
As a personal reaction, I've only seen the DVD of the live show. I felt incredibly uncomfortable thinking of the performers playing the Vietnamese women - how excited their families must be that they've made it to the West End, and then they're mainly involved in bump and grind routines. It's not wrong that this sex work is depicted, of course, but as actual people have to play these roles from within a relatively small community (and even smaller performing community) it's understandable many want what's next rather than what's already been. Will be interesting to see how the reinterpretation goes.
I was enjoying the recent 'South Pacific', then realised we hadn't had 'Happy Talk' yet, and that could torpedo the whole thing. As it turned out, the song's re-orchestration brought a complexity and mordant tone that absolutely brought a three-dimensional character angle to Bloody Mary. So Joanna Ampil has experience of reinterpreting roles to have more complexity. It can certainly be argued anyway that the (male) Engineer can be played Emcee-like, almost savouring the madness around him satirically and sundering his own morality as part of that. I wonder if playing it female may make that more difficult, as the relationship to 'the girls' and womanhood will be different; perhaps they have an entirely different angle in mind.
How much of an original you can pull in a new direction, confound, interrogate, rug-pull and critique, before you break what fundamentally worked will be interesting to see.
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 10:14:52 GMT
I think the culture has moved on from 'yes the themes are difficult but surely we sympathise most with Kim and condemn US actions' to 'when can we have South Asian / South East Asian characters who elicit more than sympathy?'. New Earth say in their statement that they understand the production is going for a 'new reading' of Miss Saigon, but they have to make decisions for their production and staff right now, and can't know in advance that they're going to be comfortable to be co-programmed with whatever the outcome is. I think they expressed that well - leaving space for the production to be revelatory, but frankly believing the problems they have with the material are too 'baked in'. As a personal reaction, I've only seen the DVD of the live show. I felt incredibly uncomfortable thinking of the performers playing the Vietnamese women - how excited their families must be that they've made it to the West End, and then they're mainly involved in bump and grind routines. It's not wrong that this sex work is depicted, of course, but as actual people have to play these roles from within a relatively small community (and even smaller performing community) it's understandable many want what's next rather than what's already been. Will be interesting to see how the reinterpretation goes. I was enjoying the recent 'South Pacific', then realised we hadn't had 'Happy Talk' yet, and that could torpedo the whole thing. As it turned out, the song's re-orchestration brought a complexity and mordant tone that absolutely brought a three-dimensional character angle to Bloody Mary. So Joanna Ampil has experience of reinterpreting roles to have more complexity. It can certainly be argued anyway that the (male) Engineer can be played Emcee-like, almost savouring the madness around him satirically and sundering his own morality as part of that. I wonder if playing it female may make that more difficult, as the relationship to 'the girls' and womanhood will be different; perhaps they have an entirely different angle in mind. How much of an original you can pull in a new direction, confound, interrogate, rug-pull and critique, before you break what fundamentally worked will be interesting to see. Your points are valid but with such changes you're talking about creating an entirely different show. Surely going forwards the point is to write stronger shows and roles for underrepresented communities, rather than try to completely change an existing work? I don't understand why every show needs to be a perfect representation or cancelled. I'd love to see more shows inclusive of Asian performers - and not just colour blind casting. That doesn't mean this show needs to be tossed in the 'problematic' pile. Otherwise it's like saying this show is the only show that can possibly be responsible for representing this community, which is far more problematic. Look to the future - new shows, new roles - instead of looking back to see what you can pull apart. (That's a general 'you', not you specifically max!)
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523 posts
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Post by vabbian on Nov 22, 2022 10:15:56 GMT
Snowflakes need to detach art from reality, Miss Saigon is objectively an amazing musical
In any case, not staging Miss Saigon would rob Asian actors of one of the few dedicated opportunities they get when it comes to theatre. Now that would do more harm than good
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1,871 posts
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Post by distantcousin on Nov 22, 2022 10:16:53 GMT
When did Miss Saigon start being so "problematic"? Literally when it opened Maybe in the US.
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594 posts
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Post by og on Nov 22, 2022 10:52:42 GMT
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 22, 2022 10:54:42 GMT
Miss Saigon has been consistently accused of racism for over 30 years, for a number of issues that range from casting to lyrics in made-up Vietnamese and depiction of Asian women. You can agree or disagree, but you can't pretend that Miss Saigon being problematic is a new trend.
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594 posts
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Post by og on Nov 22, 2022 11:03:21 GMT
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 11:04:20 GMT
No, the criticism on this was absolutely right and I don't know what on earth they were thinking (well I do, they were clearly thinking they wanted a name no matter what). But they've long abandoned casting white performers as the engineer, thank god. I think almost immediately after Pryce?
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594 posts
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Post by og on Nov 22, 2022 11:06:03 GMT
Just to clarify cezbear I am not condoning it...
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5,276 posts
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Post by mrbarnaby on Nov 22, 2022 11:28:23 GMT
Iโd be more interested to hear from the many Asian performers this show has given work to over the years.. did/do they have a problem with it?
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 11:33:25 GMT
I think the culture has moved on from 'yes the themes are difficult but surely we sympathise most with Kim and condemn US actions' to 'when can we have South Asian / South East Asian characters who elicit more than sympathy?'. New Earth say in their statement that they understand the production is going for a 'new reading' of Miss Saigon, but they have to make decisions for their production and staff right now, and can't know in advance that they're going to be comfortable to be co-programmed with whatever the outcome is. I think they expressed that well - leaving space for the production to be revelatory, but frankly believing the problems they have with the material are too 'baked in'. As a personal reaction, I've only seen the DVD of the live show. I felt incredibly uncomfortable thinking of the performers playing the Vietnamese women - how excited their families must be that they've made it to the West End, and then they're mainly involved in bump and grind routines. It's not wrong that this sex work is depicted, of course, but as actual people have to play these roles from within a relatively small community (and even smaller performing community) it's understandable many want what's next rather than what's already been. Will be interesting to see how the reinterpretation goes. I was enjoying the recent 'South Pacific', then realised we hadn't had 'Happy Talk' yet, and that could torpedo the whole thing. As it turned out, the song's re-orchestration brought a complexity and mordant tone that absolutely brought a three-dimensional character angle to Bloody Mary. So Joanna Ampil has experience of reinterpreting roles to have more complexity. It can certainly be argued anyway that the (male) Engineer can be played Emcee-like, almost savouring the madness around him satirically and sundering his own morality as part of that. I wonder if playing it female may make that more difficult, as the relationship to 'the girls' and womanhood will be different; perhaps they have an entirely different angle in mind. How much of an original you can pull in a new direction, confound, interrogate, rug-pull and critique, before you break what fundamentally worked will be interesting to see. Your points are valid but with such changes you're talking about creating an entirely different show. Surely going forwards the point is to write stronger shows and roles for underrepresented communities, rather than try to completely change an existing work? I don't understand why every show needs to be a perfect representation or cancelled. I'd love to see more shows inclusive of Asian performers - and not just colour blind casting. That doesn't mean this show needs to be tossed in the 'problematic' pile. Otherwise it's like saying this show is the only show that can possibly be responsible for representing this community, which is far more problematic. Look to the future - new shows, new roles - instead of looking back to see what you can pull apart. (That's a general 'you', not you specifically max!)
I've been on some panels for identifying new musicals for development. I think the knowledge that such potential exists will be well known within the particular sector of the artistic community that are hungry for new work and fresh tellings from their specific cultural perspective. It isn't that there's no talent out there, or that South Asian / South East Asian artists aren't using the existing structures to attempt to get their work developed and produced. I agree (and hoped to put across) that there's only a certain amount of pulling an existing work around and reshaping it before you start communicating to your audience: we don't actually like or trust this material ourselves! In which case - why do it; and why 'spoil' what an existing or returning audience liked about it?
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Post by theatrefan62 on Nov 22, 2022 11:42:35 GMT
Anecdotally my Asian friends have no issue with it, and for a couple its one of their favourite musicals.
Also historically it's accurate that women in Vietnam were treated appallingly with little options and that America had (still has) a saviour complex. These things need to be handled sensitively and an Asian creative team could bring a more rounded and authentic side to the show, but they are important and relevant themes for the time and place.
I can understand how some may have issues with it, and the broader issue of Asian actors only having this and king and I to be in needs addressing with wider representation across productions.
When individuals or groups decide they speak for everyone in a demographic i do get annoyed. I see it with gay groups speaking for me saying this or that is/isn't appropriate, and I personally am not bothered by it at all and may even like it. Likewise when I find something stereotypical or when I'm told I should like something (and I don't), I don't expect those things to be banned.
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 11:54:19 GMT
Snowflakes need to detach art from reality, Miss Saigon is objectively an amazing musical In any case, not staging Miss Saigon would rob Asian actors of one of the few dedicated opportunities they get when it comes to theatre. Now that would do more harm than good Thank goodness that Art impacts on Reality, draws from it, reflects/refracts it, and sometimes helps a change to that reality. I don't really see what the 'Snowflakes' slur has to do with that. If you're at enough distance from the heritage and characters of Miss Saigon then it may seem like 'just a story' detached from reality. The perspective New Earth are speaking from isn't that. New Earth aren't saying Miss Saigon shouldn't be staged, but that they don't want to be programmed in a season with it - due to doubts about what it's been, and how a reversion will turn out. The argument 'It's all those performers have got, why rob them of it?' is a great argument for it not being all they've got. I'm tempted to say it shows how little has moved on, but actually there's really good work (including musical theatre writing) from South East Asian writers, performers and directors in the UK. It would be great to see the producing theatre put their money into a new project of scale instead. They are a subsidised theatre after all.
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 12:03:34 GMT
Snowflakes need to detach art from reality, Miss Saigon is objectively an amazing musical In any case, not staging Miss Saigon would rob Asian actors of one of the few dedicated opportunities they get when it comes to theatre. Now that would do more harm than good Thank goodness that Art impacts on Reality, draws from it, reflects/refracts it, and sometimes helps a change to that reality. I don't really see what the 'Snowflakes' slur has to do with that. If you're at enough distance from the heritage and characters of Miss Saigon then it may seem like 'just a story' detached from reality. The perspective New Earth are speaking from isn't that. New Earth aren't saying Miss Saigon shouldn't be staged, but that they don't want to be programmed in a season with it - due to doubts about what it's been, and how a reversion will turn out. The argument 'It's all those performers have got, why rob them of it?' is a great argument for it not being all they've got. I'm tempted to say it shows how little has moved on, but actually there's really good work (including musical theatre writing) from South East Asian writers, performers and directors in the UK. It would be great to see the producing theatre put their money into a new project of scale instead. They are a subsidised theatre after all. Yes, but then what, take away the one thing and leave nothing? Why is it either/or - let's stage Miss Saigon and stage something new for these artists also. Why don't New Earth do that instead of cancelling their show? It just seems such a terrible waste of their energy to me.
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 12:04:57 GMT
Anecdotally my Asian friends have no issue with it, and for a couple its one of their favourite musicals. Also historically it's accurate that women in Vietnam were treated appallingly with little options and that America had (still has) a saviour complex. These things need to be handled sensitively and an Asian creative team could bring a more rounded and authentic side to the show, but they are important and relevant themes for the time and place. I can understand how some may have issues with it, and the broader issue of Asian actors only having this and king and I to be in needs addressing with wider representation across productions. When individuals or groups decide they speak for everyone in a demographic i do get annoyed. I see it with gay groups speaking for me saying this or that is/isn't appropriate, and I personally am not bothered by it at all and may even like it. Likewise when I find something stereotypical or when I'm told I should like something (and I don't), I don't expect those things to be banned. Really interesting anecdotal points re. your friends' perspectives. To be fair to New Earth, they're speaking for themselves and their team (as worded in their statement) rather than saying they're the voice of all South East Asians on this; and aren't calling for it to be cancelled or pulled, just saying they don't feel comfortable being co-programmed alongside it.
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 12:17:21 GMT
Thank goodness that Art impacts on Reality, draws from it, reflects/refracts it, and sometimes helps a change to that reality. I don't really see what the 'Snowflakes' slur has to do with that. If you're at enough distance from the heritage and characters of Miss Saigon then it may seem like 'just a story' detached from reality. The perspective New Earth are speaking from isn't that. New Earth aren't saying Miss Saigon shouldn't be staged, but that they don't want to be programmed in a season with it - due to doubts about what it's been, and how a reversion will turn out. The argument 'It's all those performers have got, why rob them of it?' is a great argument for it not being all they've got. I'm tempted to say it shows how little has moved on, but actually there's really good work (including musical theatre writing) from South East Asian writers, performers and directors in the UK. It would be great to see the producing theatre put their money into a new project of scale instead. They are a subsidised theatre after all. Yes, but then what, take away the one thing and leave nothing? Why is it either/or - let's stage Miss Saigon and stage something new for these artists also. Why don't New Earth do that instead of cancelling their show? It just seems such a terrible waste of their energy to me. I don't think New Earth will have a problem programming the planned work elsewhere, so I don't think anything's been lost. In recent years they've had work at Theatre Royal Plymouth, the Arcola in London and many other venues. I do usually roll my eyes when the argument comes up with musicals: 'Why X revival, when we could have New Writing?' Why? Because people go and see known properties, and a hit show might cross-subsidise New Writing. In this case though, from a subsidised theatre, and so soon after the commercial West End revival, it does feel to me that the talents of Robert Hastie and Anthony Lau might have jumped to a Large Scale piece of New Writing and cut out the middle man. It's time.
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Post by mrbarnaby on Nov 22, 2022 12:48:26 GMT
I hope that Sheffield really are doing something new with the show - god knows the recent London revival was severely lacking in all departments (not the lead performance though).
I donโt think itโs fair to right this show off when it was such a big hit for so long, and contains a score of such power.
I think if they mess it up and itโs still problematic- then criticise it- but to do so before anyones seen what theyโve done with it is bonkers.
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 12:57:25 GMT
Yes, but then what, take away the one thing and leave nothing? Why is it either/or - let's stage Miss Saigon and stage something new for these artists also. Why don't New Earth do that instead of cancelling their show? It just seems such a terrible waste of their energy to me. I don't think New Earth will have a problem programming the planned work elsewhere, so I don't think anything's been lost. In recent years they've had work at Theatre Royal Plymouth, the Arcola in London and many other venues. I do usually roll my eyes when the argument comes up with musicals: 'Why X revival, when we could have New Writing?' Why? Because people go and see known properties, and a hit show might cross-subsidise New Writing. In this case though, from a subsidised theatre, and so soon after the commercial West End revival, it does feel to me that the talents of Robert Hastie and Anthony Lau might have jumped to a Large Scale piece of New Writing and cut out the middle man. It's time. Yes but why can't we have BOTH. Arguably a known hit show giving new performers a platform and fanbase can only elevate new projects they might then go on to do.
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 22, 2022 13:18:35 GMT
Funnily enough next autumn there will be an "untitled f*ck m*ss s**gon" play at the Young Vic. Just announced. Not the first time a playwright of Asian descent addresses the topic (eg David Henry Hwang's Face Value and Yellow Face).
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Post by distantcousin on Nov 22, 2022 13:46:26 GMT
Miss Saigon has been consistently accused of racism for over 30 years, for a number of issues that range from casting to lyrics in made-up Vietnamese and depiction of Asian women. You can agree or disagree, but you can't pretend that Miss Saigon being problematic is a new trend. I think it depends on the audience we are talking about. The average theatregoer would be completely unaware of these "controversies". If it was THAT problematic (or more accurately, "unpopular" with the general public, it would have never lasted beyond its original productions. It certainly wouldn't have got a West End revival in 2013.
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 14:09:02 GMT
I don't think New Earth will have a problem programming the planned work elsewhere, so I don't think anything's been lost. In recent years they've had work at Theatre Royal Plymouth, the Arcola in London and many other venues. I do usually roll my eyes when the argument comes up with musicals: 'Why X revival, when we could have New Writing?' Why? Because people go and see known properties, and a hit show might cross-subsidise New Writing. In this case though, from a subsidised theatre, and so soon after the commercial West End revival, it does feel to me that the talents of Robert Hastie and Anthony Lau might have jumped to a Large Scale piece of New Writing and cut out the middle man. It's time. Yes but why can't we have BOTH. Arguably a known hit show giving new performers a platform and fanbase can only elevate new projects they might then go on to do. The same argument could have been made in 1989 - 'but it'll open doors for you'. Some performers/writers/directors will feel they're still waiting - and too often 'let's have both' doesn't turn into a very big other part of that 'both'. As it turns out we will have both: Sheffield's 'Miss Saigon', and no doubt New Earth will programme their play elsewhere. I thought both theatre companies statements were measured in tone. New Earth haven't said they'll never go back to Sheffield Theatres, just that they're not comfortable directly alongside the unknowns of Miss Saigon; while Sheffield have held the door open for future hosting.
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