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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2021 18:04:34 GMT
They refund on Broadway, if above the title.so why can’t they do it here? If you have splashed out to see a particular performer and they’re not on, it must be gaoling. Especially when producers advertise the name so blatantly. If the understudy is on for say the Phantom, I wouldn’t expect a refund as the show isn’t sold as a star vehicle, but as a show. Ding ding ding, Yahtzee!
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Post by robertb213 on Aug 30, 2021 18:06:27 GMT
I guess it's maybe different when huge names are involved - what happened when Glenn Close was ill and absent from Sunset, and Ria Jones went on? Were refunds/exchanges given then? That would've been more understandable if people were disappointed in not seeing a Hollywood star and seeing an understudy who would've been unknown to most of them. I know I would've been gutted if I hadn't seen Glenn. I wouldn't have expected a refund but an exchange would've seemed fair as it was sold massively on Glenn's name.
All of this probably warrants its own thread for further discussion rather than continuing to take up the Joseph thread 😀
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Post by danb on Aug 30, 2021 18:09:55 GMT
Don’t interrupt Burly during Emmerdale!!!! Jaysus, do you have a death wish.
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Post by christya on Aug 30, 2021 18:15:53 GMT
I know that I'm booked to see Linzi's last show, and if she isn't in it - well, I don't want to go and see the show. I'm normally an advocate for 'you book to see the show, not a particular person', and from a business perspective I can see why that's the attitude taken by most box offices. But every so often there really is a show you wouldn't have booked to see if it wasn't for a particular performer. I've seen Joseph many, many times. It was my first West End show. I've been Narrator in amateur productions twice. I've reached Joseph saturation point, with the one exception that I just want to see Linzi perform.
Honestly, though? It's not even about the money for me. It's more that I simply don't want to trail all the way down to London to see someone I haven't heard of, no matter how good they are, in a show I know inside out already. If for some reason Linzi isn't on for Saturday, I'd rather see something else.
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Post by steve10086 on Aug 30, 2021 18:18:06 GMT
I know that I'm booked to see Linzi's last show, and if she isn't in it - well, I don't want to go and see the show. I'm normally an advocate for 'you book to see the show, not a particular person', and from a business perspective I can see why that's the attitude taken by most box offices. But every so often there really is a show you wouldn't have booked to see if it wasn't for a particular performer. I've seen Joseph many, many times. It was my first West End show. I've been Narrator in amateur productions twice. I've reached Joseph saturation point, with the one exception that I just want to see Linzi perform. Honestly, though? It's not even about the money for me. It's more that I simply don't want to trail all the way down to London to see someone I haven't heard of, no matter how good they are, in a show I know inside out already. If for some reason Linzi isn't on for Saturday, I'd rather see something else. Exactly how I felt. But I went anyway. And hated it.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 30, 2021 18:19:52 GMT
Don’t interrupt Burly during Emmerdale!!!! Jaysus, do you have a death wish. Luckily I don’t like farms 🙂
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 30, 2021 18:27:47 GMT
New thread created as suggested in the Joseph thread and placed in General as this question applies to all types of productions.
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Post by Jon on Aug 30, 2021 18:29:55 GMT
The issue with refunding or exchanging at the very last moment is that it does put the show at risk if more than say half the customers decided to get their money back or exchange and in the very unlikely situation that everyone decides to get a refund/exchange due to the star being off then the performance would have to be cancelled which would leave both the producers and the cast and crew out of pocket.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2021 19:05:30 GMT
The issue with refunding or exchanging at the very last moment is that it does put the show at risk if more than say half the customers decided to get their money back or exchange and in the very unlikely situation that everyone decides to get a refund/exchange due to the star being off then the performance would have to be cancelled which would leave both the producers and the cast and crew out of pocket. But all in seriousness, when would that actually happen? I think that would be an extremely rare occurrence. And it wouldn't leave the cast or crew out of pocket, they legally have to be paid. The only person that might lose out is the person at the top of the pyramid and I am pretty sure to these types of people, it would be a drop in the ocean.
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Post by Jon on Aug 30, 2021 19:19:26 GMT
But all in seriousness, when would that actually happen? I think that would be an extremely rare occurrence. And it wouldn't leave the cast or crew out of pocket, they legally have to be paid. The only person that might lose out is the person at the top of the pyramid and I am pretty sure to these types of people, it would be a drop in the ocean. If the show doesn't go on, the cast and crew don't get paid as has happened with the various cancellations due to self isolation, Producers of shows do not unlimited resources or money at their disposal.
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Post by sph on Aug 30, 2021 19:29:40 GMT
I think if a show is sold as a show on its own, like The Lion King for example, it doesn't matter so much. If a show is sold based on its star, such as Anything Goes, I totally understand people wanting to exchange for a different day.
I'm not sure if it still happens, but wasn't it common practice at one time for tickets to be refunded on Broadway if the absent performer's name was above the title?
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Post by caroliner on Aug 30, 2021 19:33:31 GMT
I know that I'm booked to see Linzi's last show, and if she isn't in it - well, I don't want to go and see the show. I'm normally an advocate for 'you book to see the show, not a particular person', and from a business perspective I can see why that's the attitude taken by most box offices. But every so often there really is a show you wouldn't have booked to see if it wasn't for a particular performer. I've seen Joseph many, many times. It was my first West End show. I've been Narrator in amateur productions twice. I've reached Joseph saturation point, with the one exception that I just want to see Linzi perform. Honestly, though? It's not even about the money for me. It's more that I simply don't want to trail all the way down to London to see someone I haven't heard of, no matter how good they are, in a show I know inside out already. If for some reason Linzi isn't on for Saturday, I'd rather see something else. Exactly how I felt. But I went anyway. And hated it. I've had a lot to say on this already (!), but I should add, I'm really not one for complaining! Yesterday though was an exceptional situation. I booked for Mamma Mia a few years back, when Linzi was playing Donna. That night, Linzi dropped out and we got her understudy. I remember thinking "Oh no, that's a shame / unlucky!" and then enjoyed the show, and the understudy was fantastic anyway. I'd booked because I wanted to see Mamma Mia - Linzi was a massive bonus, but not my sole reason for booking. As for Joseph though, this was Linzi Hateley, in Joseph, as the Narrator, at the Palladium - that's a massive big deal for me who loved that show as a 12-year-old, hence my disappointment!
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Post by caroliner on Aug 30, 2021 19:36:40 GMT
I think if a show is sold as a show on its own, like The Lion King for example, it doesn't matter so much. If a show is sold based on its star, such as Anything Goes, I totally understand people wanting to exchange for a different day. I'm not sure if it still happens, but wasn't it common practice at one time for tickets to be refunded on Broadway if the absent performer's name was above the title? Totally agree with all this. If you look at the websites for Mamma Mia, Phantom, Cinderella etc... they don't name the cast as part of the main logo on the website.
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Post by Jon on Aug 30, 2021 19:42:18 GMT
The issue is that if 1 or 2 shows starting offering exchanges or refunds every time someone was off then audiences would be expecting every show to do that and a lot of shows or theatres simply do not have the resources to do that. I know some seem to think theatre owners and producers are greedy so and sos but they have to be able to make money in order to A. invest in other shows and B. Make a living.
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Post by caroliner on Aug 30, 2021 19:57:22 GMT
The issue is that if 1 or 2 shows starting offering exchanges or refunds every time someone was off then audiences would be expecting every show to do that and a lot of shows or theatres simply do not have the resources to do that. I know some seem to think theatre owners and producers are greedy so and sos but they have to be able to make money in order to A. invest in other shows and B. Make a living. Exactly. You'd have to trust people to be honest when it comes to requesting an exchange. I don't think refunds are viable at all. However, given that Sunday's Jospeh hadn't sold out, and given that there are plenty of tickets available for Linzi's next scheduled show (Wednesday), I don't think it would have hurt anyone to have allowed me to exchange my ticket. Obviously, if 1000 people in the theatre had felt the same as me, you'd be left with a half-full theatre, and a horrible situation for that evenings performers - especially bad for the understudy! But on the other hand, would that many people care enough to want to go home and travel back another day? Easy if (like me) you live in London, not so good if you've made a long train journey! I'd have happily exchanged my premium seat in the stalls for a chance to be fitted in at another performance, even in a much lesser seat. Would have been a fair trade, and something theatres could perhaps consider. I'm going to write to the Production Company - not to complain, and not to ask for a refund/exchange, but just to explain the situation and suggest that they could consider having some sort of protocol in place in future for similar situations. I wouldn't want anyone else to feel the way I felt yesterday.
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Post by Roxie on Aug 30, 2021 20:29:18 GMT
I need to chip in here cos I know quite a bit about consumer law. A show is a service so under the consumer rights act it must be performed with reasonable care and skill (amongst other things but that’s the main one that applies). It’s also covered under contract law so there will be terms and conditions that apply and that you will have had to agree to when you buy a ticket. If the theatre put on a show as agreed to a reasonable standard, then they’ve fulfilled the contract and CRA so as a consumer you don’t have legal rights to a refund. If you think they’ve breached their contract by not putting on an advertised star then you need to check terms and conditions to see if they stipulate the appearance of said star. If not, it becomes very difficult.
I can understand why people feel they want a refund but they are not legally entitled to one in most circumstances. You pay to see a show and understudies exist to fill a gap so the show can go on. Unfortunately the nature of the beast has always been even pre pandemic that certain people cannot be guaranteed and that’s even more likely in these days when there’s daily covid tests and one positive result can bench a performer for 10 days!
It’s always disappointing when the person you booked to see isn’t on, but it is what it is and can’t be helped. Life’s full of disappointment, u just handle it like an adult, take it on the chin, square your shoulders and move on without stamping your foot or being miserable about it.
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Post by sph on Aug 30, 2021 20:33:42 GMT
Which is why the "name above the title" rule worked, people knew where they stood. Unfortunately I don't think shows really do names above the title these days anyway, "top billing" is quite an old school concept.
I do disagree though that you are paying to see a show, not a performer. If this was true, star casting wouldn't exist. Producers get big names on board because they know those names will sell tickets. You can't really say "come and see my show, Judi Dench is in it!" for example, if audiences arrive one night and she isn't. In that circumstance you've sold something you haven't entirely delivered.
I get that it's live theatre, and I live in London so a return visit is easy enough for me later in the run, and I'm ok with watching an understudy, but I totally understand the disappointment people felt booking to see Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard for example and then finding out she was off that night.
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Post by poster J on Aug 30, 2021 20:37:57 GMT
I totally understand the disappointment people felt booking to see Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard for example and then finding out she was off that night. Two different things are being conflated here though - tickets and feelings. I think everyone can understand feeling disappointed about the person you wanted to see not being on, and I don't think anyone would say that isn't perfectly natural. But feelings don't govern the terms and conditions of any business. Simple as that. Nor should they, otherwise hardly anyone could afford to take on the burden of putting on a star vehicle production. For example, if Bette Midler got sick and missed a month of her run in Hello Dolly the finances would be completely different to her just missing one show. That's why a refund guarantee makes no commercial sense whatsoever and no-one should feel entitled to one. Exchanges are perhaps different but generally the shows affected by the absence of a star will be such a hot ticket that there wouldn't be availability to switch everyone. And they still need an audience for the understudy show. The Linzi situation is slightly different as she isn't an A-List star and there are some tickets left for another performance she's scheduled to do, but there is also something to be said for not opening a can of worms and setting a precedent not all shows could live up to. It's also a shame how many people in this thread seem not to care about the understudies at all, and rudely dismiss them out of hand and demand a refund rather than taking a chance and potentially seeing a future star.
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Post by caroliner on Aug 30, 2021 20:43:19 GMT
I need to chip in here cos I know quite a bit about consumer law. A show is a service so under the consumer rights act it must be performed with reasonable care and skill (amongst other things but that’s the main one that applies). It’s also covered under contract law so there will be terms and conditions that apply and that you will have had to agree to when you buy a ticket. If the theatre put on a show as agreed to a reasonable standard, then they’ve fulfilled the contract and CRA so as a consumer you don’t have legal rights to a refund. If you think they’ve breached their contract by not putting on an advertised star then you need to check terms and conditions to see if they stipulate the appearance of said star. If not, it becomes very difficult. I can understand why people feel they want a refund but they are not legally entitled to one in most circumstances. You pay to see a show and understudies exist to fill a gap so the show can go on. Unfortunately the nature of the beast has always been even pre pandemic that certain people cannot be guaranteed and that’s even more likely in these days when there’s daily covid tests and one positive result can bench a performer for 10 days! It’s always disappointing when the person you booked to see isn’t on, but it is what it is and can’t be helped. Life’s full of disappointment, u just handle it like an adult, take it on the chin, square your shoulders and move on without stamping your foot or being miserable about it. Hi Roxie! Thanks for your post. Personally, I'm absolutely aware of the T&Cs... I do take it on the chin, but also can't help but feel a tad miserable at the same time! Out of interest though... (again, I don't want a refund, never did) THIS is my one issue in terms of the "contract" - when I booked my ticket on Saturday morning (for Sunday evening's performance), the ticketing website specifically said "At this performance the role of the Narrator will be played be Linzi Hateley". It also specified her in the role for both of Saturday's performances, and Sunday's matinee. Having done a bit of digging, it seems Linzi dropped out of Saturday's performances, and Sunday's matinee, as early as Thursday - so this wasn't a last-minute withdrawal. I don't think it's right that the official ticketing website (ie literally point of sale) had the wrong information and sold tickets specifying Linzi as the Narrator at a time when she'd dropped out two days earlier. On this basis, I'd probably be within my rights to request a refund, but I won't be. What's your view on this though, from a consumer law point of view? Linzi was still being sold as the Narrator five minutes before my show started - I screen-grabbed the page as proof!
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Post by sph on Aug 30, 2021 20:47:37 GMT
I totally understand the disappointment people felt booking to see Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard for example and then finding out she was off that night. Two different things are being conflated here though - tickets and feelings. I think everyone can understand feeling disappointed about the person you wanted to see not being on, and I don't think anyone would say that isn't perfectly natural. But feelings don't govern the terms and conditions of any business. Simple as that. Technically there could be a line in the terms and conditions that say "we cannot guarantee the appearance of..." etc, but in this case that is being used as a legal loophole. How a person feels about a product or service they have paid for is very much an important part of the transaction. It may not be a legal requirement to refund or exchange a ticket, but I think in a case where a show has been sold as a "star vehicle" it should be offered at the discretion of the production. On Broadway the practice was never highly publicised, but it worked. There's no real reason it can't work here.
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Post by sph on Aug 30, 2021 20:55:56 GMT
I totally understand the disappointment people felt booking to see Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard for example and then finding out she was off that night. Nor should they, otherwise hardly anyone could afford to take on the burden of putting on a star vehicle production. For example, if Bette Midler got sick and missed a month of her run in Hello Dolly the finances would be completely different to her just missing one show. That's why a refund guarantee makes no commercial sense whatsoever and no-one should feel entitled to one. Exchanges are perhaps different but generally the shows affected by the absence of a star will be such a hot ticket that there wouldn't be availability to switch everyone. And they still need an audience for the understudy show. Also, you say that, but wouldn't Midler's run in Dolly have come under the "above the title" rule? If so your point doesn't apply to the production you use as an example. In such a case producers understand the huge gamble they are taking to produce a show based on a star. If Midler had missed a performance, they'd have taken the financial hit. If she were signed off sick for a month they'd have SCRAMBLED to find a replacement star of similar stature in order to alleviate audience disappointment, similar to how producers had to quickly book Sutton Foster for Anything Goes when Megan Mullally was unable to play the role.
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Post by Jon on Aug 30, 2021 20:59:52 GMT
Two different things are being conflated here though - tickets and feelings. I think everyone can understand feeling disappointed about the person you wanted to see not being on, and I don't think anyone would say that isn't perfectly natural. But feelings don't govern the terms and conditions of any business. Simple as that. Nor should they, otherwise hardly anyone could afford to take on the burden of putting on a star vehicle production. For example, if Bette Midler got sick and missed a month of her run in Hello Dolly the finances would be completely different to her just missing one show. That's why a refund guarantee makes no commercial sense whatsoever and no-one should feel entitled to one. Exchanges are perhaps different but generally the shows affected by the absence of a star will be such a hot ticket that there wouldn't be availability to switch everyone. And they still need an audience for the understudy show. The Linzi situation is slightly different as she isn't an A-List star and there are some tickets left for another performance she's scheduled to do, but there is also something to be said for not opening a can of worms and setting a precedent not all shows could live up to. It's also a shame how many people in this thread seem not to care about the understudies at all, and rudely dismiss them out of hand and demand a refund rather than taking a chance and potentially seeing a future star. Sheridan Smith in Funny Girl is what I thought of when this discussion came up. She was off for a month or two and if the producers decided to refund the majority of the audience for the time she was off, the show would have had to close and poor Sheridan would have gotten the blame for throwing people out of work.
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Post by Dawnstar on Aug 30, 2021 21:30:04 GMT
One issue from my point of view about getting a refund/exchange if the performer you specifically booked to see is of is how far down do you go? I've seen a number of shows over the years because performers I like have been in shows in supporting roles. So if someone who's booked in just order to see a "star" gets a refund if the star is off then what about someone who's booked just to see a performer in a smaller role who's off? Do they get a refund too?
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Post by sph on Aug 30, 2021 21:38:01 GMT
One issue from my point of view about getting a refund/exchange if the performer you specifically booked to see is of is how far down do you go? I've seen a number of shows over the years because performers I like have been in shows in supporting roles. So if someone who's booked in just order to see a "star" gets a refund if the star is off then what about someone who's booked just to see a performer in a smaller role who's off? Do they get a refund too? No, as that person is not being used to sell the production. Hence the "above the title" rule.
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Post by caroliner on Aug 30, 2021 21:42:41 GMT
One issue from my point of view about getting a refund/exchange if the performer you specifically booked to see is of is how far down do you go? I've seen a number of shows over the years because performers I like have been in shows in supporting roles. So if someone who's booked in just order to see a "star" gets a refund if the star is off then what about someone who's booked just to see a performer in a smaller role who's off? Do they get a refund too? I wonder what the deal is if you're booking to watch a non-immediate family member..?! If I had a nephew performing as a kid in Joseph, and I couldn't get a guest ticket, and the nephew is off sick, you'd imagine they'd exchange the ticket right..?! But anyway, I agree, official exchange policies can't work, because where do you draw the line? I do feel though (as another poster said) there's room for discretion and to be honest I was surprised yesterday when the manager said nothing could be done. I wasn't angry, didn't stamp my feet etc... just expressed my disappointment in a polite/friendly/sincere way.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 30, 2021 21:47:47 GMT
One issue from my point of view about getting a refund/exchange if the performer you specifically booked to see is of is how far down do you go? I've seen a number of shows over the years because performers I like have been in shows in supporting roles. So if someone who's booked in just order to see a "star" gets a refund if the star is off then what about someone who's booked just to see a performer in a smaller role who's off? Do they get a refund too? I wonder what the deal is if you're booking to watch a non-immediate family member..?! If I had a nephew performing as a kid in Joseph, and I couldn't get a guest ticket, and the nephew is off sick, you'd imagine they'd exchange the ticket right..?! But anyway, I agree, official exchange policies can't work, because where do you draw the line? I do feel though (as another poster said) there's room for discretion and to be honest I was surprised yesterday when the manager said nothing could be done. I wasn't angry, didn't stamp my feet etc... just expressed my disappointment in a polite/friendly/sincere way.If it had happened to me for Glenn’ in Sunset I’d have been like Squeaky Mouse Woman on Airline.
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Post by Roxie on Aug 30, 2021 22:12:05 GMT
Ha ha Burly! That woman is ridiculous!
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Post by Jon on Aug 30, 2021 22:15:15 GMT
I have no shame in admitting that I enjoy watching the likes of Airline and Heathrow: Britain's Busiest Airport!
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Post by Roxie on Aug 30, 2021 22:16:15 GMT
I need to chip in here cos I know quite a bit about consumer law. A show is a service so under the consumer rights act it must be performed with reasonable care and skill (amongst other things but that’s the main one that applies). It’s also covered under contract law so there will be terms and conditions that apply and that you will have had to agree to when you buy a ticket. If the theatre put on a show as agreed to a reasonable standard, then they’ve fulfilled the contract and CRA so as a consumer you don’t have legal rights to a refund. If you think they’ve breached their contract by not putting on an advertised star then you need to check terms and conditions to see if they stipulate the appearance of said star. If not, it becomes very difficult. I can understand why people feel they want a refund but they are not legally entitled to one in most circumstances. You pay to see a show and understudies exist to fill a gap so the show can go on. Unfortunately the nature of the beast has always been even pre pandemic that certain people cannot be guaranteed and that’s even more likely in these days when there’s daily covid tests and one positive result can bench a performer for 10 days! It’s always disappointing when the person you booked to see isn’t on, but it is what it is and can’t be helped. Life’s full of disappointment, u just handle it like an adult, take it on the chin, square your shoulders and move on without stamping your foot or being miserable about it. Hi Roxie! Thanks for your post. Personally, I'm absolutely aware of the T&Cs... I do take it on the chin, but also can't help but feel a tad miserable at the same time! Out of interest though... (again, I don't want a refund, never did) THIS is my one issue in terms of the "contract" - when I booked my ticket on Saturday morning (for Sunday evening's performance), the ticketing website specifically said "At this performance the role of the Narrator will be played be Linzi Hateley". It also specified her in the role for both of Saturday's performances, and Sunday's matinee. Having done a bit of digging, it seems Linzi dropped out of Saturday's performances, and Sunday's matinee, as early as Thursday - so this wasn't a last-minute withdrawal. I don't think it's right that the official ticketing website (ie literally point of sale) had the wrong information and sold tickets specifying Linzi as the Narrator at a time when she'd dropped out two days earlier. On this basis, I'd probably be within my rights to request a refund, but I won't be. What's your view on this though, from a consumer law point of view? Linzi was still being sold as the Narrator five minutes before my show started - I screen-grabbed the page as proof! You could argue it’s misleading advertising but they might argue you agreed to T&Cs saying the appearance of a star isn’t guaranteed and then if you couldn’t agree you’d have to duke it out in court! It’s difficult to say who’s in the right and who’s in the wrong cos there’s laws yes but the decision of whether they’re being followed correctly can usually only be made by a judge. How do you know she dropped out on Thursday? I know she dropped out of Thursdays show on Thursday but I always thought it was a ‘see how you feel on the day’ thing.
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Post by caroliner on Aug 30, 2021 22:34:08 GMT
You could argue it’s misleading advertising but they might argue you agreed to T&Cs saying the appearance of a star isn’t guaranteed and then if you couldn’t agree you’d have to duke it out in court! It’s difficult to say who’s in the right and who’s in the wrong cos there’s laws yes but the decision of whether they’re being followed correctly can usually only be made by a judge. How do you know she dropped out on Thursday? I know she dropped out of Thursdays show on Thursday but I always thought it was a ‘see how you feel on the day’ thing. On Thursday evening someone (who'd attended Thursday's matinee to see Linzi) said they were tempted to book again for Sunday, assuming Linzi would be back by then, and Linzi said "5 o clock show fingers crossed". So clearly her involvement for the weekend was at least very much up in the air on Thursday. They really should have amended the ticketing page, I think we can all agree on that!
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