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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:21:50 GMT
I've just seen on Twitter, fans have been protesting outside of the Channel 4 Headquarters today over the documentary, many with banners saying "facts don't lie, people do". ... before people have even had the chance to watch this documentary. Jackson still has a highly motivated and engaged fandom who would metaphorically put their lives on the line to defend his honour/legacy.
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:23:59 GMT
I have to agree that whilst the accusations are awful, another feeling I had was one of anger and fustration toward those parents who, in my opinion, were not protecting their children like any parent would and shouls. They continued to practically abandon their children with a stranger or agree to let them even stay in the same bed as a stranger. Famous or not, no matter how close, you don't do that to your own child. A lot of Part 2 is dealing with their response - Michael seduced them like he seduced the children. The Safechucks did not need to pick up Michael, he made them feel as if they were responsible for him like they were Jimmy and inserted himself into every part of their lives. Firstly, he wasn't a stranger to them and secondly just by being MICHAEL JACKSON they felt like they knew him. Neverland is literally designed to keep the parents away from the children. The reckoning that the parents have with themselves is just as compelling IMO as the reckoning that the children have. Wade said that even though he didn't meet Michael until he was 7, he felt like he was being groomed from the age of 5 just by idolising him. Fame is completely crucial Absolutely. This is key.
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:29:00 GMT
caught in amber as a child performer I don't know much about Jackson but I'd imagine his childhood was bizarre. The irony is that these parents were inflicting the same sort of weirdness on their own children. If your 5 year old is obesssively glued to a zombie pop video, most parents, you'd hope, would enrol the boy in a playgroup with other kids, or get him crayons and plasticine, not make him a leather outfit and put him on show. God knows, horror stories about the screwed-up lives and early deaths of child stars were a 'thing' even when I was a child.
Mrs Robson puts Mama Rose to shame, TBH!!!!! Ghastly woman!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 10:37:35 GMT
There was just so much about that documentary that made me so very angry. When Jimmy talked about the "wedding" and pulled out the rings, my heart absolutely broke.
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Post by danb on Mar 7, 2019 10:45:11 GMT
I don't know much about Jackson but I'd imagine his childhood was bizarre. The irony is that these parents were inflicting the same sort of weirdness on their own children. If your 5 year old is obesssively glued to a zombie pop video, most parents, you'd hope, would enrol the boy in a playgroup with other kids, or get him crayons and plasticine, not make him a leather outfit and put him on show. God knows, horror stories about the screwed-up lives and early deaths of child stars were a 'thing' even when I was a child.
Mrs Robson puts Mama Rose to shame, TBH!!!!! Ghastly woman!
As a parent I was aghast that she didn’t think twice about letting him sleep in the same room. As a parent of someone who has idolised a pop star for a long time I could see where her lack of suspicion came from. If you feel like you already know someone it must be ‘difficult’ to separate reality from potential harm...for maybe a moment. But I think reflected glory and potential riches scaled her eyes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 10:54:38 GMT
isn't it great to lay blame on someone who cannot defend themselve anymore just because of that i would never watch this anyone could say anything and Micheal cannot say anything on his behalf anymore so many people just wanting a bit of fame for themselves by accusing whatever He was a succesfull choreographer before this, one of the greatest if you ask me. Why would he lie for fame? I mean, his career is pretty much over now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 10:58:17 GMT
I've just seen on Twitter, fans have been protesting outside of the Channel 4 Headquarters today over the documentary, many with banners saying "facts don't lie, people do". ... before people have even had the chance to watch this documentary. Jackson still has a highly motivated and engaged fandom who would metaphorically put their lives on the line to defend his honour/legacy. Comparable to Wicked fans.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 7, 2019 11:04:00 GMT
I have personal experience of how fanatical MJ fans can be.
17 years ago, I was managing the Disney Store here in Oxford. MJ was due to speak at the Oxford Union. The entire day, our store was beseiged by rabid MJ fans who were convinced that he would pay a visit to the shop on his way to the Debating chamber.
He had form for this - indeed once bought the entire window display from one of the London branches. But there was almost zero likelihood of that happening in the small Oxford branch.
But we had fans from all over Europe who had flown in just on the off-chance of catching a glimpse of him getting out of a car and going into a building.
He wasn't performing. They just wanted to see him. Get close to him.
And they wouldn't move from the shop until we closed. It was utterly bizarre.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 7, 2019 11:18:02 GMT
Everyone I can guarantee sing from the same song sheet on here, if someone is not guilty they they should be free to lead there lives, but guilty should feel the whole force of the law and if they die can be wronged and condemned in death.
Celebrity guilt is a differcult one and one hard to delievered justice because of public afffections, thinking of Harry Rednapp tax dodging and John Terry racial abuse walked, as did Jeremy Thorpe, where he was played marvellously by Hugh Grant in the recent tv drama. So for celebrities you need a higher burden of proof.
The monster that was Jimmy Saville was one of the most litigious and when confronted by Louis Theroux, he merely pointed out ‘who do you think paid for that brand new kitchen’. That part got edited out!
There is no doubt there was a celebrity sex ring, involving Cyril Smith, Ted Heath etc, but all too big and powerfulto be prosecuted.
Michael Jackson allegations have been there over the years and have never gone away, when he was first arrested, he paid for his victim silence, this doesn’t help Michael.
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 11:23:09 GMT
Jackson still has a highly motivated and engaged fandom who would metaphorically put their lives on the line to defend his honour/legacy. Comparable to Wicked fans.
LOL!!!!!!!!!! Certain things bring out such quasi-religious fervour in people!!
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Post by basi1faw1ty on Mar 7, 2019 12:10:33 GMT
So I've seen it and... that was harrowing, and part 2 is supposedly worse, so I've heard.
It's gonna take me a while to wrap my head around this, and trying to separate art from artist is gonna prove even trickier than I thought if all this is true.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2019 12:53:25 GMT
Mrs Robson puts Mama Rose to shame, TBH!!!!! Ghastly woman!
As a parent I was aghast that she didn’t think twice about letting him sleep in the same room. As a parent of someone who has idolised a pop star for a long time I could see where her lack of suspicion came from. If you feel like you already know someone it must be ‘difficult’ to separate reality from potential harm...for maybe a moment. But I think reflected glory and potential riches scaled her eyes. It's the same distortion we talk about in relation to Carrie Hope Fletcher fans, really - the idea that the fan knows and can be friends with the famous person. The desire to be close to them. The sense of basking in the reflected glory of their achievements - but a thousand times more intense because of the level of fame, and talent, and because these kids really did get to appear in commercials with and go on tour with him. And of course, his worldwide fame and career started as a child. The idea that those kids could do the same thing must have been very alluring. Of course a more sensible parent would have taken stock of his apparent loneliness and maybe decided worldwide fame and celebrity is not such a desirable thing for their child after all.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 7, 2019 16:57:27 GMT
Okay
I have now seen this.
The 2 people who gave an harrowing account what Michael did to them, I found both to be more than credible. What do they have to gain by doing on camera and reliving their pain, you have to ask?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 16:59:42 GMT
I've thought about it more all day today, and having seen some other thoughts on talkshows etc today, I'm still struggling with the parents not doing anything. I completely get the arguement for them on here, but I still can't grasp it personally. I hope more clarification will come tonight.
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Post by jaqs on Mar 7, 2019 17:13:53 GMT
Talking about and understanding grooming, not just of the victim but of whole families is a pretty recent thing. It certainly wasn't something talked about back when Jackson was in court for the previous allegations (even if just as now, we all said what were the parents thinking).
He built the whole families trust and gradually erased all their boundaries, he was Michael Jackson and they were blinded.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 7, 2019 17:18:22 GMT
Did anyone see that Netflix documentary Abducted In Plain Sight?
It’s about a female child who was abducted by an abuser, but the abuser was also grooming the parents and was sexually involved with both of them as well as the child.
It was a right eye opener 😐
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 17:25:45 GMT
I watched a little bit of this last night and intend to catch up with it, but my it has been interesting watching the Jackson fandom defend him today (even from the peripheries where as it's leaked into my newsfeeds). It is a fascinating thing isn't it, who is and isn't defended in these cases and after death etc.
Obviously not having watched it all yet I can't form a full opinion, but from what I saw I had little reason to doubt the men involved, and I've no doubt their families were 'seduced' as much as they were.
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Post by crowblack on Mar 7, 2019 17:47:37 GMT
He built the whole families trust and gradually erased all their boundaries It wasn't from a standing start - the mother who brings home a 'making of Thriller' VHS and lets her 5 year old obsessively view it (zombies, sexual threat content), makes him an outfit, takes him and enters him, two years underage, in a dance competition to meet Jackson... I think there's a part of the human brain hard wired for obsessive cultish / religious behaviour and sexual abusers of all kinds have used this over centuries, millennia...
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 7, 2019 18:17:46 GMT
Everyone I can guarantee sing from the same song sheet on here, if someone is not guilty they they should be free to lead there lives, but guilty should feel the whole force of the law and if they die can be wronged and condemned in death. Celebrity guilt is a differcult one and one hard to delievered justice because of public afffections, thinking of Harry Rednapp tax dodging and John Terry racial abuse walked, as did Jeremy Thorpe, where he was played marvellously by Hugh Grant in the recent tv drama. So for celebrities you need a higher burden of proof. The monster that was Jimmy Saville was one of the most litigious and when confronted by Louis Theroux, he merely pointed out ‘who do you think paid for that brand new kitchen’. That part got edited out! There is no doubt there was a celebrity sex ring, involving Cyril Smith, Ted Heath etc, but all too big and powerfulto be prosecuted. Michael Jackson allegations have been there over the years and have never gone away, when he was first arrested, he paid for his victim silence, this doesn’t help Michael. I'd agree with that if you changed no doubt for allegedly
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 7, 2019 18:27:47 GMT
Just heard a Muller yoghurt advert with Jacksons music. Feels weird
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 18:38:25 GMT
Turns out, for Part 1, more people in the UK watched than in the US. 2.4 million of us watched last night, as opposed to the 1.3 million watching in the US. Over a million difference. What I have found interesting reading and watching interviews today, alot of Americans seem to be the ones who don't believe the allegations or at least these versions of allegations, as opposed to the UK viewers who either seem divided or more in believing these allegations. It's interesting to see so many opinions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 18:47:44 GMT
Anyone else clock the Starlight Express T-Shirt towards the beginning? haha.
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Post by Jon on Mar 7, 2019 18:48:51 GMT
Turns out, for Part 1, more people in the UK watched than in the US. 2.4 million of us watched last night, as opposed to the 1.3 million watching in the US. Over a million difference. What I have found interesting reading and watching interviews today, alot of Americans seem to be the ones who don't believe the allegations or at least these versions of allegations, as opposed to the UK viewers who either seem divided or more in believing these allegations. It's interesting to see so many opinions. TBF in the US, it's on HBO which has a smaller reach than Channel 4.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 18:57:12 GMT
Turns out, for Part 1, more people in the UK watched than in the US. 2.4 million of us watched last night, as opposed to the 1.3 million watching in the US. Over a million difference. What I have found interesting reading and watching interviews today, alot of Americans seem to be the ones who don't believe the allegations or at least these versions of allegations, as opposed to the UK viewers who either seem divided or more in believing these allegations. It's interesting to see so many opinions. TBF in the US, it's on HBO which has a smaller reach than Channel 4. Oh I'm aware. just thought it was interesting to match as maybe there are some people who don't want to watch it because they have made their mind up either side and don't want to watch for that opinion to be changed.
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Post by callum on Mar 7, 2019 19:55:07 GMT
As shown in the doc, Jackson's trips to the Reagan White House made his story seem like an archetypal 'American Dream'. Perhaps US audiences aren't as keen to see him exposed like this.
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Post by lynette on Mar 7, 2019 20:14:34 GMT
We had Jimmy Saville so I suppose in the U.K. nobody is sacred anymore.
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Post by johartuk on Mar 7, 2019 21:15:50 GMT
Just heard a Muller yoghurt advert with Jacksons music. Feels weird I'm surprised they haven't pulled that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 21:20:37 GMT
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2019 23:13:44 GMT
Terrible stuff. I hope they and their families manage to heal.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 0:05:31 GMT
I gotta sleep on this one. I still don't know how I feel.
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