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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 13:43:41 GMT
I think that's actually only a small group of Asian people who are prejudiced and who don't understand it. laugh. out. loud.
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 6, 2020 14:51:51 GMT
Can you please stop this passive aggressive behaviour and explain what your problem with the show is? Because then we can get to the point. Because with accusations like this you need good arguments, which I haven't heard yet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 15:33:49 GMT
Can you please stop this passive aggressive behaviour and explain what your problem with the show is? Because then we can get to the point. Because with accusations like this you need good arguments, which I haven't heard yet. No problem with the show, was my fav as a kid. Saw it 3 times and own 3 cast recordings. I like it. Just saying don’t think it will make it to the picturhouse as it’s a bit problematic and many Asian people think so too. Not entirely sure what I can accused of making accusations about? I mean it’s not like I called u a racist or anything
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 6, 2020 16:51:43 GMT
You call the show problematic, so I was wondering what you think the problems are.
All Asian people I know think it's wonderful, understand it and see it in perspective and think it's an important and beautiful story to tell.
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Post by sf on Jun 6, 2020 22:43:31 GMT
You call the show problematic, so I was wondering what you think the problems are. All Asian people I know think it's wonderful, understand it and see it in perspective and think it's an important and beautiful story to tell. This article does a good job of setting out some of the problems some people have with the writing:
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 6, 2020 23:19:24 GMT
Thanks, I know that article. What she writes is entirely not about this show. It's about things from the past she doesn't accept, other stories she is more interested in and lies about the characters and writing. Good for her that her own story doesn't contain women like that or white men at all. Other stories do.
She complains about a line of the character Chris, who has an american point of view and mistakes a character arc with the message of the show.
Remarks like these: "We hate ourselves because we are not white (the Engineer), and we will even shoot ourselves in the name of America (Kim). Why would you want to be with a Vietnamese man when you can be with a white man? Why would you want to be Vietnamese when you can be American instead?" show she is prejudiced and doesn't look at the show from a neutral point of view at all. The show's power is that it's about the human spirit and above these racist limitations. If she views Kim's suicide as a race thing or the fact that she chooses Chris over Thuy as a race thing, she should really work on herself before she visits any show at all.
"Asian women are resilient, resourceful, strong, not victims. Instead, in Miss Saigon, Kim, a woman with no last name, sings about her longing for a man to save her" This remark actually makes me positive that she has not seen the show, she just pretends she does so people might read her article.
"Don’t depend on whiteness; it will kill you." Wow, this lady has issues. I think she needs help. This show is all about being above that.
"idolize whiteness to the point of suicide?" Sure, that's Kim's motivation. Really, why is this article still online? Such racists are rare.
Aside from the complete disrespect for people in history and the Vietnam war that does not fit her preference, she also rants that she just hates this show because of "yellowface" casting and that they "rather cast white actors to play us", which hasn't happened for 20 years and has nothing to do with the production she claims to have seen.
What a bizarre article.
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Post by sf on Jun 6, 2020 23:29:33 GMT
No, it isn't bizarre. It's the product of someone whose cultural background is not the same as yours, and whose interaction with this material, therefore, was also not the same as yours. Or to put it another way: the author is of a culture the show attempts to represent, and your vehement dismissal of her opinion because it doesn't mesh with your own response to the piece reveals a great deal.
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 6, 2020 23:40:20 GMT
This is not about interaction with this material. The things she claims are utterly untrue, racist and fables.
Kim does not shoot herself over race. This show is not about "whiteness kills you". Kim does not choose Chris over Thuy because of race. There is no yellowface casting anymore.
Over and out.
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Post by sf on Jun 6, 2020 23:46:26 GMT
This is not about interaction with this material. Yes it is. It is VERY clearly about how she interacts with the material as a person of the same cultural background as several characters in the show. If you don't understand that very, VERY basic point, you aren't going to understand the rest of the article. This is not difficult.
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 6, 2020 23:59:10 GMT
I think you make a mistake there, the things she mentions (that I mention in above post) clearly tell that she does not interact with the material, as the remarks are actually not about the material. It's prejudice and things that are not a matter of opinion but utterly untrue statements.
If you defend her remarks: "Kim shoots herself over race. This show is about "whiteness kills you". Kim chooses Chris over Thuy because of race. The casting is yellowface." as an opinion, then you have a blind spot somewhere and then there is no need to discuss this any further with you. Because this lady is NOT interacting with the material. She is preventing interaction because of prejudice and that is not fair.
Edit: I think people like this who can't look past race, who can't see human, are a danger to society and themselves. The message of Miss Saigon is human spirit above race. I wish this lady good luck in life.
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Post by sf on Jun 7, 2020 0:02:06 GMT
Nope. It's the product of her lived experience. I'd use shorter words, but there aren't any. Once again, your racism is showing.
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 7, 2020 0:05:02 GMT
Wrong, supporting her is supporting racism.
For me it's always human and human only. That's why I love Miss Saigon so much, it rises above it all.
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 7, 2020 0:29:07 GMT
sf lord knows you tried. How Dave25 is still allowed an account on this forum I don't know.
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Post by couldileaveyou on Jun 7, 2020 2:24:56 GMT
Are we talking about the same Miss Saigon that is so respectful of the culture it represents that it ran for over a decade with lyrics in made-up Vietnamese because the authors couldn't be bothered to use the real language of the country? Or a real language at all?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 5:45:46 GMT
It’s also the same Miss Saigon where the creatives didn’t employ Vietnamese leads because they figured Viennese can’t do musical theatre
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Post by Oleanna on Jun 7, 2020 7:35:15 GMT
Viennese can’t do musical theatre To be fair, they normally stick to Operetta. And waltzing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 7:47:33 GMT
Viennese can’t do musical theatre To be fair, they normally stick to Operetta. And waltzing.
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Post by TheOneOnTheLeft on Jun 7, 2020 8:43:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 8:49:41 GMT
Vienna? Means nothing to me......
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 7, 2020 9:33:35 GMT
sf lord knows you tried. How Dave25 is still allowed an account on this forum I don't know. Because I am always kind and stable and reasonable and explain my thoughts. That's actually how a forum works. Are you able to understand this? Threatening with deleting accounts when an opinion differs from yours is not how a forum works. Get out of your judgemental victim role and start discussing your point too.
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 7, 2020 9:42:50 GMT
It’s also the same Miss Saigon where the creatives didn’t employ Vietnamese leads because they figured Viennese can’t do musical theatre Can you give me a link to a girl with the same talent and who fits the role of Kim as good as Lea Salonga? They actually have Vietnamese girls in the show, sometimes even playing Kim, but luckily casting is still about a certain standard. But they might find more in the future. What exactly is your point? That other Asian people should stay locked behind the border of their own country? That one Asian person can not play a role from another Asian country? Who are you to decide they can't? Must the Engineer be born in France too? The road to equality begins where you stop drawing lines in the sand.
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Post by sf on Jun 7, 2020 10:40:07 GMT
Are we talking about the same Miss Saigon that is so respectful of the culture it represents that it ran for over a decade with lyrics in made-up Vietnamese because the authors couldn't be bothered to use the real language of the country? Or a real language at all? Exactly. CHRIS: It's pretty, but what does it mean? KIM: It means the authors and producer were so entrenched in their white colonialist arrogance that they couldn't even be bothered to go out and find a native speaker to write TWELVE SYLLABLES of Vietnamese. Even in 1989, at 16 years old, I thought that was obnoxious and indefensible (along with the truly disgusting use of footage of real children in Bui Doi - real suffering packaged up as set-dressing in a blockbuster, which was vile). There was a lot I loved about it, but there were a few things that stuck in my throat - and if a white teenager from north-west England who'd never been anywhere closer to Asia than Faulkner Street in Manchester could see it, I'm sure it must have resonated as very, very problematic indeed to some Vietnamese viewers.
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Post by David J on Jun 7, 2020 13:09:05 GMT
I've just watched this video on Cats by youtuber Lindsay Ellis, who makes some very insightful essay videos on musical films like Phantom. Well worth a watch but the last 5 minutes sums up why I don't want a Miss Saigon movie, or even Hamilton for that matter.
She mentions how much of the big film musicals since Moulin Rouge and Chicago have been Oscar bait films (the added unnecessary song, the casting of celebrities and so on). Except the Oscars nowadays prefer films set in realism which made Tom Hooper a shoe-in with his need to make Les Mis and Cats realistic.
Is there still a market for musical films. Sure, but if you want a film that's true to the source material then don't expect Hollywood to make one and they are certainly unable to make a Miss Saigon film
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 7, 2020 16:34:01 GMT
Exactly. CHRIS: It's pretty, but what does it mean? KIM: It means the authors and producer were so entrenched in their white colonialist arrogance that they couldn't even be bothered to go out and find a native speaker to write TWELVE SYLLABLES of Vietnamese. Kim literally says they didn't know what else to sing. Where do they claim it's actually meant to be a real language? I have actually always like the fact that it was some fantasy prayer. Random beautiful sounds. Each country has that and it leaves something to the imagination. With that said, the whole show is not in Vietnamese, so that is ok but a fantasy prayer isn't?
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Post by sf on Jun 7, 2020 16:44:13 GMT
Where do they claim it's actually meant to be a real language? "It's what all the girls sing at weddings". Thank you, but I know what a straw man looks like. I also know colonialist arrogance when I hear it. The choice to use made-up words in that moment was appalling, lazy, and absolutely unjustifiable. Try to frame it whatever way you like, but some things are simply wrong.
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 7, 2020 16:51:37 GMT
Thanks for that video link David, interesting!
I agree, maybe it's better to not ruin this beautiful material with an Oscar bait Hollywood adaptation. I wish there would be more directors with actual passion and vision.
In the past there have been musicalfilms that work (Moulin Rouge, Evita, Chicago) because they are stylistic and embrace the non-literal element which for example Tom Hooper completely fails to understand.
The only way they will work is indeed through hyper stylisation, to replace the non-literal form of this material. Or indeed, animation. Overcoming suspension of disbelief of the language. More like a videoclip. A fantasy element of storytelling. A non-literal world with non-literal bleating in eachothers face.
I have never understood why Hollywood does not understand this. Anyone can see that it works better. It's not like people ran out of the cinema during "A whole new world" in Aladdin in 1992. People can handle it. It's actually what they want when visiting a musical film.
The idea that a "realistic" approach means apologizing for the sung thoughts and the language of this artform needs to go.
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 7, 2020 16:59:20 GMT
but some things are simply wrong. Times have changed. The whole world has changed. And yes, this causes little details here and there to be adjusted. Now it's fixed, so you can choose to applaud it, or to keep complaining about these details that once were. Same goes for yellowface casting. Once accepted. Today we live in a different world. All those things are progress. But claiming today that: "Kim shoots herself over race. This show is about "whiteness kills you". Kim chooses Chris over Thuy because of race. The casting is yellowface." Is racist and moving backwards. That's not fair and has nothing to do with the show how it is today.
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Post by 49thand8th on Jun 7, 2020 17:07:19 GMT
It’s also the same Miss Saigon where the creatives didn’t employ Vietnamese leads because they figured Viennese can’t do musical theatre This person orders pho and expects Wiener schnitzel.
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Post by sf on Jun 7, 2020 17:24:25 GMT
All those things are progress. But claiming today that: "Kim shoots herself over race. This show is about "whiteness kills you". Kim chooses Chris over Thuy because of race. The casting is yellowface." Is racist and moving backwards. That's not fair and has nothing to do with the show how it is today. It's racist for Diep Tran to complain about the way white writers chose to portray a character from her own country and culture? Please explain how. It's been a long few months and I could really use a laugh.
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Post by danb on Jun 7, 2020 17:43:07 GMT
Is Alan Parker still active? He’d be an excellent choice. He has shown time and time again his ability to do both intimate and large stories in ‘epic’ settings, and handle a musical. Does anyone have his address?
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