2,041 posts
|
Post by 49thand8th on Oct 2, 2018 20:18:13 GMT
it gets confusing, especially for people seeing it for the first time when they change a characters race while groing up. Would not mind Cosette being black , but would prefer to have a small black Cosette then too It's a matter of practicality. Do you switch out every time there's an understudy on? If one has to leave the job for any reason, do you fire the other one? (And in the US, where the girls switch off evenly, do you keep one only as Young Cosette and only as Young Eponine so the ethnicities match?) I think people can adapt. Clearly the spell hasn't been broken for enough audience members over the past decades, so they're going to keep casting this way.
|
|
572 posts
|
Post by princeton on Oct 2, 2018 23:08:01 GMT
It's a show that has been running for 33 years - and there have been, throughout this time, many cast members who are perhaps less ideally suited to their roles than their predecessors or indeed successors.
I don't think any casting issues are as simple as the actors being much younger that they had been in the past. Michael Ball was one year out of drama school when he played Marius and Frances Ruffelle was 20 when she created Eponine, yet both actually older than the characters they were playing. As for the current Javert being 20 years too young, I believe he's 30 which is the same age as Philip Quast was when he played the role, and only two years younger than Roger Allam in the original cast. John Owen Jones was 26 when he first played Valjean - and his performance is talked about, quite rightly, in the most revered tones. I haven't seen the current cast so am not passing judgement on suitability for roles - just making the point that it can't be put down to age alone.
I can't claim to have seen it nearly as many times as some on this board, nor do I share in the complete adoration for the piece, but I've probably watched it about 15 or so times across 33 years - from the very long version at the Barbican to a couple of years ago at the Queens. I remember thinking that the Original Broadway company was a pale facsimile of the original London cast - played broadly without any subtlety or nuance - and with a Marius and Cosette who were less young lovers and more middle aged couple (I was 23 at the time and, unlike Ball and Rebecca Caine, they seemed so much older than me). I saw it a few years into the run at the Palace (with most lead roles being onto their second or third change) and thought it had become sloppy and self-indulgent with a Valjean and Javert who were both doing a lot of acting to show us how hard they were working but to very little emotional effect. It felt as though it was on its last legs. A couple of years later it was back, fresh as a daisy. And we're not anywhere near the 10th anniversary yet.
In terms of drama school graduates - it does look as though this year's intake is pretty significant. I know that at the time of the aforementioned cull of 2005 - Cameron Mackintosh wanted lots of new blood and he felt that students should look like students - not west end old timers. So since then they've been holding auditions in most of the major drama schools on an annual basis specifically to get younger actors. CML would probably argue that this is for authenticity rather than economics - but who knows.
Finally, and I apologise for the length of this post, I agree with 49thand8th that audiences can adapt and accept theatrical artifice such as a morphing Cosette (even if they talk about it in the interval). There's an awful lot in the staging of Les Miserables which is non-natural and it doesn't seem to have impacted on the success of the show. I certainly don't think such a casting/directorial decision signals the death knell any more than the lacklustre Valjean/Javert combo I saw about 30 years ago.
|
|
1,429 posts
|
Post by showtoones on Oct 16, 2018 19:54:57 GMT
The woman playing Cosette happens to be black and they felt she was the best person for the role this time around. So why does having a a white young Cosette matter? In Billy Elliott, they had a black and Asian Bill with a white father. People survived and it didn't lead to the premature closure of the show.
While discussing race is worthwhile, I feel like there are overtones to this critique that aren't fair to the performer or the performance in general. Are you saying they should have a black young Cosette and then if Amara is out, make sure they put a white little Cosette on to match? As you know, that wouldn't happen.
Its called suspension of disbelief. In Joseph, some of the 12 bothers were black and Jacob was white. People didn't lose thew fact that they were still related in the show.
I know people hold this show very close to their hearts but people need to relax a bit and just enjoy the piece for what it is and the amazing message that we need more than ever right now.
|
|
449 posts
|
Post by SageStageMgr on Oct 17, 2018 11:40:22 GMT
The woman playing Cosette happens to be black and they felt she was the best person for the role this time around. So why does having a a white young Cosette matter? In Billy Elliott, they had a black and Asian Bill with a white father. People survived and it didn't lead to the premature closure of the show. While discussing race is worthwhile, I feel like there are overtones to this critique that aren't fair to the performer or the performance in general. Are you saying they should have a black young Cosette and then if Amara is out, make sure they put a white little Cosette on to match? As you know, that wouldn't happen. Its called suspension of disbelief. In Joseph, some of the 12 bothers were black and Jacob was white. People didn't lose thew fact that they were still related in the show. I know people hold this show very close to their hearts but people need to relax a bit and just enjoy the piece for what it is and the amazing message that we need more than ever right now. Once again: The reason is matters in this particular case is because the actress in question is portraying the SAME CHARACTER, in a plot central role, who a few scenes earlier had been a little girl of a different race. The actress who is supposed to be her maternal mother in the story also bears no resemblance whatsoever. In the context of the story, it makes absolutely no sense. I reiterate, for the third time now, that my issue isn't that she is a black Cosette, but rather that the casting of a black Cosette within this cast, in the context of the story, simply makes no sense. Zero. Please try to forget any preconceived ideas of my opinions of race or equality, and look at it in simple, non-partisan terms. The example you gave of Billy Elliott is near-identical to the one I gave about Gary Wilmot in Chitty, as I'm sure you know if you're replying to my posts on this matter. Just a reminder, in case you actually hadn't read my reasoning, this is absolutely fine as it in no way distracts or detracts from the telling of the story. What would be weird though, would be if half-way through the second Act the car changed into a pink minibus without any in-story explanation whatsoever. Incidentally, Billy Elliott is now closed. In its old theatre is a hugely successful and diversely casted show called Hamilton, about a bunch of dead white guys. It's a good show. Not historically accurate, but in French revolutionary times people didn't burst into song while fighting on the streets, so 'willing suspension of disbelief' is ALWAYS in play when visiting the theatre. Both tell a good story in their own style and both are phenomenally popular. Having re-read my original post (the review) I do feel I perhaps wasn't harsh enough as to how poor the performance was in general terms. The actress playing Cosette (I assume that's Amara? I'm not on first name terms with the cast there), was okay. Quite a good voice. Nothing special; out of the Cosettes I've seen, she'd be in the bottom third - by no means the worst. There were far less convincing performances elsewhere talent-wise. As for your Joseph point, once again, does it matter if the cast are made up of different races, heights, generations and so forth? Absolutely not. The story gets told just fine regardless. I appreciate people get very sensitive (squeamish almost) when anybody mentions anything to do with race. For the fourth time, unless critical to the plot ala Hairspray (a show explicitly about race issues), anybody could potentially play any part in my view - as long as they were talented and right for the part performance wise. What would really piss me off would be a completely random little white child playing Cosette for a song in an all-black cast, then nobody ever mentioning it again. It's taking liberties with the show and being incredibly self-indulgent. As I say, I don't think she was even anything special in this show.
|
|
1,429 posts
|
Post by showtoones on Oct 17, 2018 16:14:23 GMT
The woman playing Cosette happens to be black and they felt she was the best person for the role this time around. So why does having a a white young Cosette matter? In Billy Elliott, they had a black and Asian Bill with a white father. People survived and it didn't lead to the premature closure of the show. While discussing race is worthwhile, I feel like there are overtones to this critique that aren't fair to the performer or the performance in general. Are you saying they should have a black young Cosette and then if Amara is out, make sure they put a white little Cosette on to match? As you know, that wouldn't happen. Its called suspension of disbelief. In Joseph, some of the 12 bothers were black and Jacob was white. People didn't lose thew fact that they were still related in the show. I know people hold this show very close to their hearts but people need to relax a bit and just enjoy the piece for what it is and the amazing message that we need more than ever right now. Once again: The reason is matters in this particular case is because the actress in question is portraying the SAME CHARACTER, in a plot central role, who a few scenes earlier had been a little girl of a different race. The actress who is supposed to be her maternal mother in the story also bears no resemblance whatsoever. In the context of the story, it makes absolutely no sense. I reiterate, for the third time now, that my issue isn't that she is a black Cosette, but rather that the casting of a black Cosette within this cast, in the context of the story, simply makes no sense. Zero. Please try to forget any preconceived ideas of my opinions of race or equality, and look at it in simple, non-partisan terms. The example you gave of Billy Elliott is near-identical to the one I gave about Gary Wilmot in Chitty, as I'm sure you know if you're replying to my posts on this matter. Just a reminder, in case you actually hadn't read my reasoning, this is absolutely fine as it in no way distracts or detracts from the telling of the story. What would be weird though, would be if half-way through the second Act the car changed into a pink minibus without any in-story explanation whatsoever. Incidentally, Billy Elliott is now closed. In its old theatre is a hugely successful and diversely casted show called Hamilton, about a bunch of dead white guys. It's a good show. Not historically accurate, but in French revolutionary times people didn't burst into song while fighting on the streets, so 'willing suspension of disbelief' is ALWAYS in play when visiting the theatre. Both tell a good story in their own style and both are phenomenally popular. Having re-read my original post (the review) I do feel I perhaps wasn't harsh enough as to how poor the performance was in general terms. The actress playing Cosette (I assume that's Amara? I'm not on first name terms with the cast there), was okay. Quite a good voice. Nothing special; out of the Cosettes I've seen, she'd be in the bottom third - by no means the worst. There were far less convincing performances elsewhere talent-wise. As for your Joseph point, once again, does it matter if the cast are made up of different races, heights, generations and so forth? Absolutely not. The story gets told just fine regardless. I appreciate people get very sensitive (squeamish almost) when anybody mentions anything to do with race. For the fourth time, unless critical to the plot ala Hairspray (a show explicitly about race issues), anybody could potentially play any part in my view - as long as they were talented and right for the part performance wise. What would really piss me off would be a completely random little white child playing Cosette for a song in an all-black cast, then nobody ever mentioning it again. It's taking liberties with the show and being incredibly self-indulgent. As I say, I don't think she was even anything special in this show. I certainly understand your point but I just don't agree with it. You keep making the same point over and over again (as you state, 3rd time or 4th time, though I don't feel the need for you to be condescending). In the past they have had black Eponines and the Thernadiers are white. They have had Asian Fantines and the Cosettes are white, etc. Instead of "looking out for people who have never seen the show before" take it for what it is.
|
|
2,041 posts
|
Post by 49thand8th on Oct 17, 2018 16:35:36 GMT
It's also incredibly insulting that you feel the need to approach a new audience member as someone delicate who needs hand-holding.
|
|
316 posts
|
Post by martello736 on Oct 17, 2018 18:15:18 GMT
It's also incredibly insulting that you feel the need to approach a new audience member as someone delicate who needs hand-holding. Agreed. That being said, I've never made it all the way through a performance of Les Mis before because the notion that the people stood on stage are from the 19th Century has always been too ridiculous for me to comprehend. Everybody knows that it's 2018. I am also expected to believe that the stage is a prison, and inn and a barricade, as and when the "French people" tell me it is (did I mention they're French but sound British?), which is frankly insulting to my intelligence. And why, may I ask, am I told that this narrative takes place over several years when I know that I've only been sat in the theatre for a couple of hours? Not only that, they all seem to face forward the vast majority of the time. Why would they do that? I don't deliberately angle every conversation I have in the same direction. I'm as open minded as anybody but even I refuse to make these kinds of mental leaps. In comparison, the idea that a person could give birth to somebody with a very slightly different skin tone to them seems barely even noteworthy
|
|
2,041 posts
|
Post by 49thand8th on Oct 17, 2018 18:18:43 GMT
YEAH. Why doesn't Marius just GO AROUND the gate Rue Plumet, I say.
|
|
316 posts
|
Post by martello736 on Oct 17, 2018 18:28:12 GMT
YEAH. Why doesn't Marius just GO AROUND the gate Rue Plumet, I say. Exactly! And have you noticed that once a character walks off the stage nobody acknowledges they're still there any more? Why doesn't Jean Valjean just stand in the wings until Javert gets bored of not being able to find him?
|
|
349 posts
|
Post by kimbahorel on Oct 17, 2018 18:58:00 GMT
It's not practical to have all of the kids at a show even if they did have a little black Cosette. All the little Eponines are understudies for little Cosettes as well. They can't just pick and choose a kid based on what the adult Cosette looks like. They most probably have a schedule of performances between the 3 little Cosettes. Eventually somewhere you are going to have an inconsistencies.
It's what someone posted a suspention of disbelief. Surely though at the core of everything if that is the thing in the show that people are taking the issue with - two different colour Cosettes. It really showing how petty people can be. Lets face it it's a fictional musical based on a fictional book with characters that aren't real. Nothing about the show has to in any way has to represent any sort of realism. For one thing they break out into a song evey few minutes.
|
|
349 posts
|
Post by kimbahorel on Oct 17, 2018 19:39:49 GMT
YEAH. Why doesn't Marius just GO AROUND the gate Rue Plumet, I say. Exactly! And have you noticed that once a character walks off the stage nobody acknowledges they're still there any more? Why doesn't Jean Valjean just stand in the wings until Javert gets bored of not being able to find him? Why does JVJ never notice that Thenardier and the students were convicts with him? Why does no one realise Fantine comes back from the dead and fights on the barricade? Or Enjolras is a server at Marius' wedding. Why does no one realise people singing/talking to themselves?
|
|
1,008 posts
|
Post by talkstageytome on Oct 18, 2018 0:01:19 GMT
Also, little Cosette is in the show for what, 5 mins? And she's called 'Cosette' plenty of times. And then when she grows up the first you see of her she's following her dad around and she's referred to by name pretty sharpish too. I just don't see how it's confusing for audiences who are paying attention, or how it trivialises the story at all. Both actresses are playing Cosette. That's literally all there is to it?
It's not like the Little Cosette and Little Eponines have EVER been cast to be exact feature by feature match-up twins of their older counter parts anyway.
It's seems pretty obvious to me that it doesn't bother most people on this board, audiences aren't boycotting the show and it's been cast inclusively for years across continents. It's unlikely to change so the solution to your issue might have to be 'live with it'.
|
|
4,799 posts
|
Post by The Matthew on Oct 18, 2018 9:04:12 GMT
Posts removed. Try to make a point without personal insults, please.
|
|
3,057 posts
|
Post by ali973 on Oct 19, 2018 9:29:36 GMT
YEAH. Why doesn't Marius just GO AROUND the gate Rue Plumet, I say. Flashback to 1992 when my mom turned to my sister and made that. exact. same. comment.
|
|
2,041 posts
|
Post by 49thand8th on Oct 19, 2018 14:23:42 GMT
Haha! My dad actually said this to me in 1995.
|
|
874 posts
|
Post by daisy24601 on Oct 19, 2018 19:27:14 GMT
My bro said that the first time we saw it. We have hilarious relatives!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 21:34:46 GMT
I just found a pro-shot of the Madrid production from 2011 and it feels like Christmas!
The brilliant Gerónimo Rauch as Valjean. Don't know who plays Javert here but it is the alternate.
I've seen most if this cast live at some point. Love Guido Balzaretti as Marius and Lydia Fairen as Eponine (I also saw them as Gabe in Next to Normal and Wednesday in Addams Family). And Eva Diago is the funniest Mme Thenardier I've ever seen.
Enjoy, even if it's not in English.
|
|
1,010 posts
|
Post by David J on Oct 27, 2018 21:47:22 GMT
I just found a pro-shot of the Madrid production from 2011 and it feels like Christmas! The brilliant Gerónimo Rauch as Valjean. Don't know who plays Javert here but it is the alternate. I've seen most if this cast live at some point. Love Guido Balzaretti as Marius and Lydia Fairen as Eponine (I also saw them as Gabe in Next to Normal and Wednesday in Addams Family). And Eva Diago is the funniest Mme Thenardier I've ever seen. Enjoy, even if it's not in English. It is unfortunate though that it had to catch the one time Enjorlas was unable to fly the flag in time.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 9:05:08 GMT
The brilliant Gerónimo Rauch as Valjean. Don't know who plays Javert here but it is the alternate. I've seen most if this cast live at some point. Love Guido Balzaretti as Marius and Lydia Fairen as Eponine (I also saw them as Gabe in Next to Normal and Wednesday in Addams Family). And Eva Diago is the funniest Mme Thenardier I've ever seen. Enjoy, even if it's not in English.
Javert in the video is David Ordinas.
This production, and the subsequent Spanish tour, is the perfect example of how much richer the score sounds when sung by more mature voices. I don't know the exact ages of the cast, but they were not drama school graduates. The last time I saw this production was in Barcelona in 2014, and it was definitely the strongest cast/performance of Les Mis I have ever seen.
Daniel Diges (Enjolras in the video) is now playing Valjean in Mexico (having also done it in Portuguese in Brazil).
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 11:29:41 GMT
The brilliant Gerónimo Rauch as Valjean. Don't know who plays Javert here but it is the alternate. I've seen most if this cast live at some point. Love Guido Balzaretti as Marius and Lydia Fairen as Eponine (I also saw them as Gabe in Next to Normal and Wednesday in Addams Family). And Eva Diago is the funniest Mme Thenardier I've ever seen. Enjoy, even if it's not in English.
Javert in the video is David Ordinas.
This production, and the subsequent Spanish tour, is the perfect example of how much richer the score sounds when sung by more mature voices. I don't know the exact ages of the cast, but they were not drama school graduates. The last time I saw this production was in Barcelona in 2014, and it was definitely the strongest cast/performance of Les Mis I have ever seen.
Daniel Diges (Enjolras in the video) is now playing Valjean in Mexico (having also done it in Portuguese in Brazil).
Thanks, I had no idea who that was! I saw Ignasi Vidal twice and he was sensational. I loved the cast too. It was supposed to tour again but got canceled for some reason.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 12:08:38 GMT
Javert in the video is David Ordinas.
This production, and the subsequent Spanish tour, is the perfect example of how much richer the score sounds when sung by more mature voices. I don't know the exact ages of the cast, but they were not drama school graduates. The last time I saw this production was in Barcelona in 2014, and it was definitely the strongest cast/performance of Les Mis I have ever seen.
Daniel Diges (Enjolras in the video) is now playing Valjean in Mexico (having also done it in Portuguese in Brazil).
Thanks, I had no idea who that was! I saw Ignasi Vidal twice and he was sensational. I loved the cast too. It was supposed to tour again but got canceled for some reason.
I saw Ignasi Vidal, and agree he was sensational (he also does the singing voice of the Beast in the Spanish version of the new Beauty and the Beast film).
Yes, I think the plan was to bring the show back to Madrid (to the Teatro Coliseum) from September 2015, with a few weeks first in Malaga and Barcelona in the July and August (I had tickets for Barcelona). But they announced in the May that it was cancelled. I think it was a problem with the Coliseum in Madrid (disagreement between the theatre's previous owners/city council), so there was no point in remounting the production for just a few weeks in each Malaga and Barcelona, as Madrid was the main run.
Stage Entertainment later bought the Coliseum and reopened it with Mamma Mia, and sadly there has been no more talk of Les Mis returning.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 12:54:45 GMT
I had tickets too! I'm sure it will return some day tho.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 15:46:34 GMT
I had tickets too! I'm sure it will return some day tho. Hopefully. The 2010 Madrid production (and I'm guessing Spanish tour) used the set from the 25th Anniversary UK Tour. I don't know if this is the same set that is going to be used again for the upcoming UK tour, but if so, it will be a few years before it's available again for Spain.
|
|
874 posts
|
Post by daisy24601 on Dec 14, 2018 10:59:24 GMT
No word yet on where this is moving to? The Queens is going dark from possibly as early as March.
|
|
874 posts
|
Post by daisy24601 on Dec 14, 2018 16:22:27 GMT
Ah apparently they've told the staff as early as March, but no later than July.
|
|
349 posts
|
Post by kimbahorel on Dec 14, 2018 16:35:54 GMT
I assume its at the end of the June at the last booking day. Because that woukd be annoying to book the last shows and find they have been cancelled.
|
|
1,064 posts
|
Post by bellboard27 on Jan 2, 2019 18:07:52 GMT
The Obamas’ take on Les Mis!
|
|
241 posts
|
Post by justafan on Jan 8, 2019 13:03:37 GMT
|
|
4,466 posts
|
Post by Being Alive on Jan 8, 2019 13:20:18 GMT
Exactly what I wanted to happen. Time to get a new version in to the West End.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 13:27:39 GMT
Technically though it isn’t closing, it’s moving to the Gielgud for four months the link title is quite misleading.
|
|