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Post by kathryn on Jun 5, 2017 13:16:08 GMT
So which is it: Ariana is wrong for her clothing choices because of the response it gets from men or because it causes eating disorders in young girls? Ariana's figure is perfectly achievable and healthy for someone of her body type. If she was outwardly calling people fat, promoting a certain diet to her fans or getting surgery and then claiming to be natural then that's one thing, but to suggest she can't be a role model because she dares to show her slim body now and again is bizarre. Ariana has a different body type to Katy Perry who has a different body type to Rihanna who has a different body type to Jesy from Little Mix. All are healthy bodies of different shapes and sizes and young people should be encouraged to be proud of and happy with their body type, providing it is healthy. Having representation of someone on the skinny side like Ariana is just as important as having representation of someone curvier, people are bullied for being skinny too, as I said earlier particularly for not having big boobs or a big bum. I think eating disorders in young people are far more likely to stem from hearing parents/siblings/family friends incessantly talk about weight, diets, cheat days, treating yourself etc. than from seeing a slim body on television. I don't want to get too off topic, but the research on eating disorders indicates that the causes are very complex, and can include biological factors and childhood trauma - including childhood sexual abuse -as well as cultural/social pressure to be thin. To single out Arianna Grande is ludicrous when researchers are fairly sure that all the images of slim people in the media can't be pinpointed as a direct cause. After all, we are far from having an epidemic of underweight young people - it's rather the reverse case, as I understand it. Edited to add: I can understand a kneejerk 'too soon' response to the concert, even though I think it's wrong - these kind of responses are what they are, and you can't change them. Acting like there's some kind of moral objection to the young lady's clothes - which are no more revealing than I've seen on stage in many a musical and play - to justify that response is really distasteful, and smacks of that Daily Mail column that claimed the bombers targetted the concert because of her stage outfits. The attendance from people who were there when the bombing happened indicates that most of them found it to be a positive tribute. And I think it's an entirely appropriate act of defiance to the scumbags who targeted innocent people simply enjoying a night out in order to terrorise us.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 13:18:16 GMT
Good point and quite frankly even if we never saw the slim bodies of celebrities, how would children and teens be shielded from seeing slim bodies in real life?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 13:18:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 14:00:53 GMT
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Post by hal9000 on Jun 5, 2017 15:05:32 GMT
And huge props to all the people in the crowd and more particularly those who donated money.
No one could be faulted for fearing the worst and staying away or fearing the worst and attending anyway. Both are legitimate responses and I hope the event gave people a few hours of joy and togetherness to warm their hearts.
Especially seeing the response of a certain world leader on twitter, the strength of community in rallying around the effected in Manchester and London does you all proud.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 15:55:08 GMT
Just purchased one of the One Love Manchester white jumpers Ariana was wearing last night! Fabulous!
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jun 5, 2017 17:13:52 GMT
Dressing in a revealing manner is a revolutionary act! Er, yes, I'm sure that's the response from most blokes who access her images. Try walking in Riyadh and see what happens. A woman wearing what she wants to, and not because a patriarchy forces her to is, indeed, a revolutionary act. As for men, who cares if they view her as an attractive woman? Really, what on earth is the ideology that forces a woman to wear certain clothes because of what men might think!? Sounds very akin to radical Islam to me. That a good proportion of her fan base is gay men is another screw you to the extremists. Thrown to their deaths from buildings by ISIS but standing proudly side by side with strong and independent women here, that other section of society that they are treated, by Islamic fundamentalists, as less than human. This is crucial, we are liberal, tolerant, global; they are narrow minded, intolerant and isolated. Any rowing back from what we are would be their victory.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jun 5, 2017 17:26:42 GMT
And huge props to all the people in the crowd and more particularly those who donated money. No one could be faulted for fearing the worst and staying away or fearing the worst and attending anyway. Both are legitimate responses and I hope the event gave people a few hours of joy and togetherness to warm their hearts. Especially seeing the response of a certain world leader on twitter, the strength of community in rallying around the effected in Manchester and London does you all proud. If Trump does, indeed, visit London soon I think the response to him now is likely to be ten times as negative as it would have been before his latest twitter spat. Oh, dear, what a pity......
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4,038 posts
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Post by kathryn on Jun 5, 2017 17:37:44 GMT
I liked the suggestion on Twitter, if he does turn up, the crowds should simply turn their backs on him, with people holding up signs saying 'wanker' at regular intervals so the news cameras can't miss them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 17:41:31 GMT
I liked the suggestion on Twitter, if he does turn up, the crowds should simply turn their backs on him, with people holding up signs saying 'wanker' at regular intervals so the news cameras can't miss them. I would frankly come to London just to hold up said sign. I also love all the responses defending Sadiq Khan as well. Don't mess with someone Londoners support!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 17:44:26 GMT
Are we talking about the skinny young thing who seems barely dressed in every photograph I've seen, is almost collapsing under the weight of her fake eyelashes and pulls a pout more often than a smile? If so, we're going to have to agree to disagree on the 'role model' thing, I'm afraid, guys. If it causes you so much upset, you should perhaps stop googling pictures of "Ariana Grande Barely Dressed".
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18,774 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 5, 2017 17:53:16 GMT
Ok maybe we should pull this back to the original topic. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 18:18:31 GMT
Thank you for your polite response, emicardiff. I'm not conflating them, honestly - I was just answering points other people put to me throughout the thread, which may understandably have led to some confusion, especially because I couldn't do the multiple quote thingy on my phone (to be honest, I'm struggling with it even on my Mac!). I didn't mean them to be part of the same argument.
I take your point about Take That, I think the difference is that social media is so all-pervading now, not to mention online bullying. I think there is more pressure on young kids, of whatever gender, to conform to certain physical ideals. Again, I reiterate: it is clearly not the sole cause of eating disorders, body dysmorphia etc. And I am not saying Grande's choice of clothes/way in which she presents her figure makes her Feminist Enemy Number One. What I am saying is that she conforms to a certain stereotype to sell records. That stereotype says: sleek, slim, painted, pliable = beautiful = successful. Which I find pernicious. And I think it should be considered before we go raving on about role models.
Snutte: why can't it be both?
They wouldn't. I never said they would. My point is they'd see them in the context of a wider range of body shapes. Like we all do, in the shopping malls. Happy women who are thin, fat, blonde-haired, blue-haired, white, BAME, acne-scarred, disabled, who have friends and partners and are living successful lives. But look at the women in the advertising in the shopping malls and what do you see? 9 times out of 10 - unless there's a Dove advert somewhere - a skinny body in revealing clothes!
Cardinal Pirelli - my point wasn't clear. I meant that this thing you claim is a 'revolutionary act' plays right into the hands of what men want (hashtag NotAllMen). How revolutionary is that, truly? I read recently that the only sphere in which women are paid more than men is modelling and porn. Forgive me for not feeling hugely empowered by the consequences of women flaunting their bodies. Maybe if more talented women took less time playing into what is, in a lot of cases, essentially a soft porn stereotype, we might see society opening up more to their capabilities.
kathryn - I would never, EVER, suggest anything like that. You are drawing entirely your own inference here, please let's be clear about that.
In conclusion: I posted my original comment in response to a string of posts by men stating confidently what constituted a good role model for women. As a woman myself, who has lived 41 years with the female experience, I simply wished to put an alternative viewpoint that maybe they hadn't considered. And then it all went nuclear. Ah well. If nothing else, at least today I have found myself for the first time in my life having some sympathy with Jeremy Corbyn! ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 18:19:16 GMT
Ok maybe we should pull this back to the original topic. Thanks. Oops sorry Burly, posts clashed. That quote thing takes ages!! :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 18:24:56 GMT
Ok maybe we should pull this back to the original topic. Thanks. Oops sorry Burly, posts clashed. That quote thing takes ages!! :-) Quoting both just to say: @jeanhunt I find your points there fair, and I personally wouldn't say she was or wasn't a role model simply because I know jack-all about her! And likewise we've all got our own opinions on what does or doesn't consitute good role model. Likewise thanks for a reasoned polite respone. Burly/Admin, yup back on it! In the spirit of gettting back on it, can we PLEASE talk about how bad Robbie was, and that it looked like he'd rolled out of bed in that tracksuit?! because I for one feel better getting that out of my system.
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18,774 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 5, 2017 18:28:47 GMT
I quite fancied Chris Martin. And that's a first.
I'll be buying a Mondeo and going into Sales next...
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Post by d'James on Jun 5, 2017 18:42:35 GMT
I quite fancied Chris Martin. And that's a first. I'll be buying a Mondeo and going into Sales next... Yes I've been getting more of a thing for Chris recently. Maybe since he's been de-Gwynethed something's changed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 18:47:12 GMT
I thought Miley was fabulous personally. It just felt really natural and lovely.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 18:48:43 GMT
I quite fancied Chris Martin. And that's a first. I'll be buying a Mondeo and going into Sales next... Yes I've been getting more of a thing for Chris recently. Maybe since he's been de-Gwynethed something's changed. Ga-wyneth with a ga!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 18:51:07 GMT
I can scarcely believe I just typed that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 2:21:17 GMT
I would just like to make the final point that I do think there are a range of body types and looks of women available to see in the celebrity world. For every Ariana, there's a Lena Dunham. For every Beyonce, there's an Adele. Even last night alone, we saw Katy Perry with a cropped haircut, Ariana in a jumper and jeans, Miley with natural looking makeup and someone like Imogen Heap who has her own quirky image. Ariana is not playing into the hands of straight men when her fanbase is girls and gay men. Modelling and porn isn't the same thing as being a pop singer and there is nothing wrong with being a healthy weight and liking makeup and wearing different types of clothes. I wont budge on that one I'm afraid. Anyone that judges women from that is someone I judge in return.
Anyway that's the last I'll say on it. I thought it was a lovely concert and everyone did a good job even people I don't usually like (Justin, Miley). It did a world of good in terms of raising money and lifting spirits.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 7:26:48 GMT
I feel a need to talk about Katy Perry's hair. As a Pixie cut hair person (and someone who has never had long hair) I LOVE when celebrities have short hair, because I'm so damn sick of the feminine = long hair/ "OMGIWOULDDIEIFICUTMYHAIR" cult....
Anyway Katy rocked it and that bird outfit.
AND I didn't want to punch Bieber in the face, which is an improvement on the usual state of affairs.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 9:54:32 GMT
I love Katy Perry, have for years, and her music is on all my playlists. She has a reputation for not being the best live singer, but I thought her songs were amazing, possibly the best I have ever heard her sing. Part of Me was amazing!
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18,774 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 6, 2017 12:13:26 GMT
I feel a need to talk about Katy Perry's hair. As a Pixie cut hair person (and someone who has never had long hair) I LOVE when celebrities have short hair, because I'm so damn sick of the feminine = long hair/ "OMGIWOULDDIEIFICUTMYHAIR" cult.... Anyway Katy rocked it and that bird outfit. AND I didn't want to punch Bieber in the face, which is an improvement on the usual state of affairs. The woman in front of me at Dreamgirls the other night had very long hair which she delighted in allowing to flow luxuriantly over the back of her chair. But because my knees invariably brush the back of the seat in front I kept catching her silken locks and PULLING THEM . and she had the nerve to turn round and give me a look. Cheeky moo. Stop invading my space with your body parts love and we won't have a problem!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 12:32:08 GMT
I feel a need to talk about Katy Perry's hair. As a Pixie cut hair person (and someone who has never had long hair) I LOVE when celebrities have short hair, because I'm so damn sick of the feminine = long hair/ "OMGIWOULDDIEIFICUTMYHAIR" cult.... Anyway Katy rocked it and that bird outfit. AND I didn't want to punch Bieber in the face, which is an improvement on the usual state of affairs. The woman in front of me at Dreamgirls the other night had very long hair which she delighted in allowing to flow luxuriantly over the back of her chair. But because my knees invariably brush the back of the seat in front I kept catching her silken locks and PULLING THEM . and she had the nerve to turn round and give me a look. Cheeky moo. Stop invading my space with your body parts love and we won't have a problem! Ooh I bloody hate that- hair flicking, hanging swooshing. If it's that long tie it up out of people's way or at least sit on it yourself!
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Post by CG on the loose on Jun 6, 2017 12:45:13 GMT
Ooh I bloody hate that- hair flicking, hanging swooshing. If it's that long tie it up out of people's way or at least sit on it yourself! But no topknots please - especially those of the pineapple-top variety!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 13:13:05 GMT
I saw a teen at the NT the other day who had not only a bun right on top of her head, but also one of those enormous bows that are apparently all the rage right now. I was extremely glad not to be sat behind her!
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4,799 posts
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 6, 2017 14:41:04 GMT
The woman in front of me at Dreamgirls the other night had very long hair which she delighted in allowing to flow luxuriantly over the back of her chair. This is where a hundred-pack of binder clips comes in useful.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 14:47:58 GMT
Important to remember: tempting though it may be, cutting someone's hair without their consent counts as assault. Spilling sticky drinks in it, however, why, I think that just gets chalked up as an unfortunate accident...
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