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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 13:51:33 GMT
Two more-
A LOT not 'alot'
and SEPARATE not 'seperate'
(I think the caring you mention, The Matthew, is key here... Just think what sh*te we'd all have to watch in the theatre if the director didn't care, the actor didn't care, the sound guy didn't care, the set designer didn't care... they just kept making the same old mistakes they always do. And nothing improved. Ever.)
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Post by bellboard27 on Mar 7, 2017 13:53:15 GMT
Two more- A LOT not 'alot' and SEPARATE not 'seperate' (I think the caring you mention, The Matthew, is key here... Just think what sh*te we'd all have to watch in the theatre if the director didn't care, the actor didn't care, the sound guy didn't care, the set designer didn't care... they just kept making the same old mistakes they always do. And nothing improved. Ever.) I think I've been to that show.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 13:56:03 GMT
Two more- A LOT not 'alot' and SEPARATE not 'seperate' (I think the caring you mention, The Matthew, is key here... Just think what sh*te we'd all have to watch in the theatre if the director didn't care, the actor didn't care, the sound guy didn't care, the set designer didn't care... they just kept making the same old mistakes they always do. And nothing improved. Ever.) I think I've been to that show. Oh so have I, believe me! But it didn't half piss me off, and I bet it did you too! And that's why I'm so glad that others don't have the same approach... They care!
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Post by Baemax on Mar 7, 2017 14:02:48 GMT
Speaking of intervals did anyone ever see Oresteia at Trafalgar Studios? I know it was the aesthetic of the show but all intervals should be like that. Timed with the clock ticking down. When it hits zero the next act starts. It was impressive how smoothly it worked as well, I don't remember any post-interval latecomers when I saw it.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 14:07:04 GMT
Well, you've asked people to 'give a bit more thought', and you've discovered that it has caused a huge discussion about English language usage and offended some people. You've been perceived as lacking in consideration yourself. So, how has that worked out for you? Because I'm pretty sure it's not going to stop people using 'could of'. Edit: Now, why didn't that quote work?!! Gaaaah! Your tone is now getting aggressive and patronising, which I'm afraid to me doesn't help your cause. I am trying to find a middle ground here that isn't going to offend anyone disproportionately, because whether you intend to or not you are offending those of us who dare to disagree with you as much as you seem to have been offended by some of the posts commenting that some people find incorrect grammar irritating. I'm starting to feel as if some of those who think there is no need to be concerned at all about grammar (which is their right to think) are trying to push contrary opinions into the ground by sheer force and aggression. That is as much lacking in consideration as any comment about poor grammar which doesn't take into account disabilities or linguistic backgrounds (which if you care to look back at my posting history in this thread I have specifically taken note of). No-one is right or wrong here, everyone is entitled to think what they please about their grammar and others', particularly on a public forum such as this where there will be differences in expression and people are free to post what they wish, and I think some people need to remember that. It doesn't seem to me to be productive to say any more on this, as clearly there is little appetite for finding a middle ground, which is a shame. Funnily enough, I'm not the slightest bit offended, though I understand why some people are. And obviously, I'm very far from thinking there's no need to be concerned at all about grammar! But this whole thread is aimed at getting people to change how they write on the forum, in order to not annoy other people. It's not an approach that seems to have worked. Which is unsurprising, really - I mean, we indulge far more annoying posting habits that the odd grammatical error! Live and let live - and if you really can't bear someone, put them on ignore - seems to me the only possible 'middle ground' we can reach.
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Post by Kim_Bahorel on Mar 7, 2017 14:11:26 GMT
Speaking of intervals did anyone ever see Oresteia at Trafalgar Studios? I know it was the aesthetic of the show but all intervals should be like that. Timed with the clock ticking down. When it hits zero the next act starts. It was impressive how smoothly it worked as well, I don't remember any post-interval latecomers when I saw it. No latecomers but a few who just hung around to the last second to sit or didn't take notice of the usher telling them when it was going to start again. Ending in a some what blind panic as the theatre went suddenly dark. It was brilliant to watch to be honest.
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Post by Jon on Mar 7, 2017 14:48:01 GMT
I'm mixed on the subject because on the one hand, grammar errors and text speak do annoy me at times but on the hand I use things like IMO and TBH which you wouldn't use in an email or a letter but it's fine on a text message or forum.
My pet peeve is overuse of GIFs and memes which is rare on here but I've seen it on other forums
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 7, 2017 15:06:39 GMT
The "should have should of" really doesn't bother me. I'm from south east London everyone says should of. They might not write it like that but they say it. On the subject of grammer itself, I find it difficult, I find it difficult to read and how to structure sentances. For me those little things just don't bother me. The same goes with "gotten" I have written that many times. We say it like that in SE London. Guess what I am also from SE London, we type as we speak. Stuck because of a bomb alert, no trains from London Bridge, should of been home by now.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 7, 2017 15:12:27 GMT
As someone with dyslexia, it really harks of being back in the playground and being pointed at and mocked for making mistakes. There are some mistakes that are down to things like dyslexia and some that are down to not having English as a first language, but the sort of mistakes that have legitimate causes tend to follow patterns. Russians sometimes omit articles where English requires them, for example, and some languages that are heavy in gender inflection result in people using "he" and "she" where a native English speaker would use "it". The mistakes being criticised here aren't those sorts of mistakes. It's obviously poor form to pick on people who are struggling with learning a new language or who have dyslexia, but we shouldn't go too far the other way and adopt an attitude of "being wrong is just as good as being right". The sort of mistakes we're talking about aren't the sort of mistakes that require higher education. This is basic stuff: the language equivalent of knowing how to add 5 to 7. For example, no native speaker of English should struggle with apostrophes and the letter S because the rules to cover the overwhelming majority of cases can be learnt by anyone in a minute: Possessives: Add 's for singulars and for plurals not already ending in -s. Plurals ending in -s add ' after the s. cat => cat's, woman => woman's, cats => cats', women => women's Possessive exceptions: Hers, its, theirs and so on: you wouldn't write hi's so don't use an apostrophe in the others.
Contractions: something + is => -'s. This includes it is => it's.
Plurals: Don't use an apostrophe. Extremely rare exception: Phrases like "dotting the i's and crossing the t's", where the apostrophe serves as a break to avoid creating the word "is".That shouldn't be a challenge for anywhere near as many people who appear to find it a challenge. That fits in superbly with your narcissistic superiority. Perhaps the next lesson should be 'capitals'. The answer is clearly 14.
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Post by 49thand8th on Mar 7, 2017 15:30:17 GMT
Thank goodness someone has raised the 'could of' thing... This has bugged me for ages but I thought if I brought it up it would go down like a lead balloon. Champagne for ggersten! I did bring it up in a thread once and was thoroughly told off for doing so! It's just basic grammatical rules, so I don't think it's being too pedantic to point it out if it's something that's been happening repeatedly and the phrase was being specifically used to make a point (I hate the use of the word Nazi so won't use that phrase). What irks me equally is those who don't know when to use your/you're, and people who put apostrophes in the wrong place (or fail to use them entirely!). I apologise if that makes me seem harsh, but it honestly does spoil my enjoyment of the forum a bit to read posts with basic incorrect grammar that aren't obviously typos or written by those for whom English is not their first language. I don't think it's asking a lot, just for people to be aware of a couple of very common grammatical mistakes that do make a difference. And I say that as someone whose best friend is dyslexic, so I'm aware of the difficulties that can cause, but she always tries to use the correct phrasing and more often than not is successful. I understand that it might spoil some people's enjoyment of the forum to have to think a bit more about grammar, but it's not a one-way street - just as there will be people who find it difficult, there will also be people who find having to read repeated basic grammar errors difficult, so I think a balance needs to be found. I agree with you. What I'm coming from is: I'm a copy editor. I make my living pointing out where other people falter in this realm of their lives. So, online discussion is a mixed bag for me: It's a relief not to care, but it's also frustrating. That said, I can't and won't judge people's online communications the same way I do at work. I'd never get through the day if that happened. However, once you've been around, it's not hard to tell when someone really does have trouble with the language versus when they're just being lazy. And if you're being lazy, why not take the time to craft something that obviously shows you've put more thought into it than just trying to write while exiting the train or while you're in bed half asleep?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 15:36:06 GMT
Oh dear, Phantom, and I was just about to tell you that we've finally got the last of the Grammar Squad's heads from out the pilot's arse. He's a bit sore but he now knows that he should have kept his wits about him. He would have been fine with this lot, but he turned to sort out the flame, and that's when it all went arse-upwards. Still, it could have been a lot worse... Apart from this, an uneventful day on Theatre Board forum.
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Post by infofreako on Mar 7, 2017 15:51:48 GMT
49thand8th because I don't want to get moaned at for quoting a long post on top of everything else. I mentioned laziness earlier briefly but I didn't mean it in the way you suggest. I post from 2 devices. One has a cracked very small screen which is very difficult to read now. If I'm using that to post the last thing on my mind is crafting something that looks like I've taken time and paid attention to it. My other device isn't always to hand so it's easier to use the old one. I always thought this was a nice relaxed place to come and chat about theatre and not be judged and reprimanded for the slightest thing.
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Post by 49thand8th on Mar 7, 2017 15:54:24 GMT
I always thought this was a nice relaxed place to come and chat about theatre and not be judged and reprimanded for the slightest thing. Are you, though? Or are you being hyperbolic? Or is this thread just revelatory, for better or for worse?
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 16:02:25 GMT
I agree with you. What I'm coming from is: I'm a copy editor. I make my living pointing out where other people falter in this realm of their lives. So, online discussion is a mixed bag for me: It's a relief not to care, but it's also frustrating. That said, I can't and won't judge people's online communications the same way I do at work. I'd never get through the day if that happened. I think anyone who has done it professionally learns a couple of things: 1) life is too short to be correcting people all the time, and 2) people really don't appreciate having their mistakes pointed out in everyday life.
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Post by 49thand8th on Mar 7, 2017 16:05:55 GMT
The other thing that's cropped up the past few years is paranoia among my friends and family who've known me since I had a very different career path. Many of them joke, "Oh nooooo, I didn't want to make a typo in my text to you!" Like, WTF, man, I don't care. I know what you meant. I might make fun of you if it's REALLY funny, but we're already friends.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 16:10:25 GMT
I think anyone who has done it professionally learns a couple of things: 1) life is too short to be correcting people all the time, and 2) people really don't appreciate having their mistakes pointed out in everyday life. I wonder if the issue some have had is the fact that some people feel the need to point out their grammatical mistakes in public. I can imagine that's not a particularly nice feeling.
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Post by emicardiff on Mar 7, 2017 16:13:27 GMT
The other thing that's cropped up the past few years is paranoia among my friends and family who've known me since I had a very different career path. Many of them joke, "Oh nooooo, I didn't want to make a typo in my text to you!" Like, WTF, man, I don't care. I know what you meant. I might make fun of you if it's REALLY funny, but we're already friends. I mean that's exactly it right? it's like if I'm speaking another language with friends, one that I'm learning and I say something really ridiculous like 'I like to ride my pig to work' well if we're all friends we can have a good laugh about it, because it is silly. And if we're not, as long as someone politely points out my mistake rather than mocking in a nasty way everyone is alright.
I think the issue was the slightly dramatic 'it's just the worst thing ever I cannot abide these stupid people' attitude in some cases.
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Post by infofreako on Mar 7, 2017 16:20:08 GMT
I always thought this was a nice relaxed place to come and chat about theatre and not be judged and reprimanded for the slightest thing. Are you, though? Or are you being hyperbolic? Or is this thread just revelatory, for better or for worse? I just genuinely think this thread creates divisions that weren't there previously. Not being hyperbolic at all. I think a large percentage of my posts have been fine and where they haven't if the bad grammar is pointed out its water off a ducks back. Having a thread designed to specifically have digs at people seems harsh to me and appears unwelcoming to potential newcomers. Surely we want to grow this community because we all enjoy talking about a shared interest.
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Post by The Matthew on Mar 7, 2017 16:40:21 GMT
I think a large percentage of my posts have been fine and where they haven't if the bad grammar is pointed out its water off a ducks back. Having a thread designed to specifically have digs at people seems harsh to me and appears unwelcoming to potential newcomers. I don't think it was about having digs at people, and I'm rather disappointed that some people have chosen to respond to my posts as if that's what I was doing instead of considering what I've been writing. The way I interpreted the thread is that it's about the fact that some people simply aren't bothered about trying to be correct. I wasn't attacking dyslexics or people using English as a foreign language, and I wasn't attacking specific people. I was attacking the lazy attitude of "Why be right when being wrong is good enough?" I'm surprised that people take issue with that, and I'm more than a little hurt that people have attacked me for it.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 16:54:14 GMT
Matthew, I don't think that comment was aimed at you.
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Post by infofreako on Mar 7, 2017 16:56:34 GMT
Matthew, I don't think that comment was aimed at you. It wasnt. Puzzled as to why I was quoted to be honest.
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Post by Jon on Mar 7, 2017 16:57:51 GMT
For all this debate about grammar and spelling, I'm quite glad no one posts in Parsley speak
Because that
would be
very annoying
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Post by The Matthew on Mar 7, 2017 17:04:14 GMT
Matthew, I don't think that comment was aimed at you. I know it wasn't, but there were some earlier comments that were quite definitely directed at me. I posted in reply to infofreako because he and some others appear to have taken this whole thread as an attack on them personally, and I wanted to make it absolutely clear that, no matter how what I've been saying may have been misrepresented, I'm not trying to tell any poster that if they don't improve their English then they're not welcome here. On the other hand, any poster who eats crisps in a theatre is welcome ... in HELL.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 17:04:36 GMT
[quote author=" The Matthew " source="/post/96630/thread" timestamp="1488904821" The way I interpreted the thread is that it's about the fact that some people simply aren't bothered about trying to be correct. [/quote] The thing is, some people didn't interpret it that way. They interpreted it as a personal dig at their own shortcomings. And since the thread is specifically about people who post on this board - not some abstract hypothetical situation - it's not a stretch. Edit: Cross posted with you, Matthew, but I will say, I don't think it was your comments in particular that people were offended by, it's the thread.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 17:23:43 GMT
Can we rename this thread 'how too piss everyone off'?
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Post by poster J on Mar 7, 2017 17:28:23 GMT
I think a large percentage of my posts have been fine and where they haven't if the bad grammar is pointed out its water off a ducks back. Having a thread designed to specifically have digs at people seems harsh to me and appears unwelcoming to potential newcomers. I don't think it was about having digs at people, and I'm rather disappointed that some people have chosen to respond to my posts as if that's what I was doing instead of considering what I've been writing. The way I interpreted the thread is that it's about the fact that some people simply aren't bothered about trying to be correct. I wasn't attacking dyslexics or people using English as a foreign language, and I wasn't attacking specific people. I was attacking the lazy attitude of "Why be right when being wrong is good enough?" I'm surprised that people take issue with that, and I'm more than a little hurt that people have attacked me for it. My thoughts exactly, and that's what disappointed me about some of the reactions on this thread as well. It seemed to me to turn into a thread where the only acceptable opinion was that no-one should give a damn about grammar mistakes in any form, without recognising that there is a difference between people who clearly simply don't care about grammar accuracy and those who have a valid reason for not always getting it right. I've felt like I've been attacked for having the opinion that in some cases it is simply just about taking a brief minute more to consider how a post is phrased when you're writing it, and that's been pretty unpleasant to deal with. As I read it, the thread was started simply as a general comment on grammar points that often arise, not individual digs at individual posters, which is as generalised a topic as whether threads about touring productions should be in the Musicals sub-forum or a separate one - it simply invites individuals' opinions. I think it's equally offensive that people have been jumped on for expressing general views on the assumption that individual posters are being targeted, when that wasn't my intention and clearly wasn't the intention of others either. The initial comment was a general one that could just as easily have been made as a random ramble on the off-topic thread without anyone batting an eyelid as it's just someone airing their own personal view.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 17:41:29 GMT
Personally I don't care about the spelling and grammar of others, nor the amount of slang, gifs etc. that they choose to use. Everyone has different ways of expressing themselves, different struggles with language and so on. If I find a post hard to understand then I'll just scroll past it or if it's in direct response to me, ask them to clarify their meaning. I'm sure everyone on this board is trying their best to speak in plain, simple and concise terms so I don't feel the need to call anyone out if they don't quite manage to do so.
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Post by 49thand8th on Mar 7, 2017 17:45:33 GMT
Can we rename this thread 'how too piss everyone off'? No, because that's not what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 17:57:18 GMT
Can we rename this thread 'how too piss everyone off'? Just to put things into perspective, most of the 1000+ members of Theatre Board have made no contribution to this thread for whatever reason. ggesrsten's initial post attracted 14 'likes' in seven hours which suggested that he was not alone in his views. In fact this number outweighs the number of people who might be perceived as 'pissed off'. A few have overreacted, posting repeatedly and drawing more attention to themselves than was necessary. Then there was the usual crowd (actually very small in number when you reread the whole thread) who like to descend on any hot topic, whatever it might be about, posting endlessly and rather aggressively throughout the day and who have stirred up those who might have genuinely felt aggrieved because they thought the post was aimed at them. So it's hardly everyone that is pissed off. Far from it.
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Post by foxa on Mar 7, 2017 18:11:39 GMT
In another life, I was an English teacher and it doesn't bug me if folks make errors/use slang/write casually/show they are human with the occasional typo (which I do myself.) I've spent too much of my life correcting others' writing, so have no inclination to do it here. Frequently I'm impressed by how well people write - which is why I recently complained about a Times review of 'Hamlet' - people posting here were so much more insightful and eloquent. And for our posters for whom English is their second language - I have nothing but respect.
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