459 posts
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Post by djdan14 on Oct 28, 2016 11:59:59 GMT
I'm somewhat trepidatious about seeing Hair at the Hope Mill next month. It is a very small space! Danny Baker includes an anecdote in his first autobiography about his sister taking him up west for the first time to see Hair. Sitting in an aisle seat in the stalls the young Mr Baker was a little perturbed when the cast disrobed, came down from the stage to sing and dance. When a male actor stood next to him, he stared straight ahead not knowing where to look! So he can’t be sure but something touched his cheek as the actor span round! Hope you enjoy the show! (Like most of Danny’s stories best not thought about too much). This was recreated in the tv series of the book on the BBC this year or last. Which I found rather too amusing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 12:12:21 GMT
I can't say I've ever been conscious of it on stage, perhaps because I see far more musicals than plays, where it seems it is less common.
However, it really grinds my gears in film and television where I'm constantly seeing women's boobs and bums (and more commonly, vulvas) yet we're lucky if we get a 2 second clip of a man's bum. Really do feel for female actresses that feel pressured to do nudity and hope we will get to a point of equal female and male nudity i.e. if you want to show a woman's boobs, then let's see the man's bum too.
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133 posts
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Post by whygodwhytoday on Oct 28, 2016 12:22:01 GMT
I feel this is subjective. Theatre is not a place for censorship or faux offence and outrage at something common - nudity. I'd like to think people who go and see plays tailored towards adults can stomach a bit of nudity (no pun intended) without rushing home to their laptops and writing articles along the lines of "this has to stop".
But hey, if homogeneous, politically correct, magnolia theatre is your thing...
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4,631 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Oct 28, 2016 12:25:44 GMT
Mallards picked up on the point earlier I was going to make with the National Theatre's production of Cleansed.
The Testament of Mary at the Barbican kind of being unnecessary, my only objections is being a male that sees plays by myself, you can feel like a voyeur at time.
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Xanderl
Member
Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Oct 28, 2016 12:27:04 GMT
Think the most gratuitous nudity I can remember seeing is in "The Wolf from the Door" at the Royal Court Upstairs, where the young male lead stripped off and stood around stark naked for several minutes, for no apparent reason. There was an interesting discussion in (I think) David Weston's follow-up to "Covering McKellen" where he talked about the phenomenon of fringe productions featuring nudity because that tended to increase the ticket sales, and young actors (of either gender) feeling pressured to appear naked in such productions. I think it must have been on the old board where someone described sitting at the front of the National for "Peer Gynt" and having a naked cast member bending over directly in their eyeline - the phrase "It was like they were winking at me" stuck in my mind forever
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1,175 posts
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Post by joem on Oct 28, 2016 13:14:18 GMT
I think too much is made of this. British people are traditionally on the prudish side, which is why nudity on stage is a big thing. If people were more relaxed about nudity there'd be less smut around.
As a point of fact: when female and male nudity on stage statistics are compared, I assume female breasts count as nudity but male chests do not. Is that part of the reason for the imbalance?
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433 posts
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Post by DuchessConstance on Oct 28, 2016 13:20:27 GMT
This is really two different debates in one thread. The use and importance of nudity from an audience/artistic perspective is imo a different debate from the realities of what a (male-dominated, known to have a gender problem) culture that normalises naked female flesh does to women working in that culture. From an artistic pov and as an audience member, I have no problem with nudity and agree it can be used to great affect. There are valid artistic justifications for nudity. But as a woman who's worked in theatre for years, who has been sexually assaulted, groped and propositioned by directors, who's been screamed at by a household name to "show off your p*ssy!"; as a woman who's had to employ and try to maintain authority over men much older than myself who have seen me naked; as someone who's worked with and heard the stories from literally hundreds of women in theatre over the years, I cannot divorce what the audience sees from what happens behind the scenes. I am not anti-nudity. The industry has problems that go a lot deeper than this, and it's those root problems that need to be fixed. But we can't talk about nudity in theatre without acknowledging that what happens onstage does not exist in a vacuum. I feel this is subjective. Theatre is not a place for censorship or faux offence and outrage at something common - nudity. I'd like to think people who go and see plays tailored towards adults can stomach a bit of nudity (no pun intended) without rushing home to their laptops and writing articles along the lines of "this has to stop". But hey, if homogeneous, politically correct, magnolia theatre is your thing... But that marginalises the (often very young and green) actors who are pressured into things they do not want to do, and ignores the gendered power dynamic and the relationship between this and the problems of financial exploitation and a work culture that expects early-career actors to work for free. There is a big difference between a famous actress with loads of offers going nude in the West End, and a drama school graduate working two jobs being pressured to go nude for an unpaid pub fringe because she feels she has no other choice. The cultural attitude that if you are an actress you must be willing to exploit your body definitely influences a culture where abuse can flourish. And some directors exploit the artistic justifications for onstage nudity for their own ends. For example directors who insist on actresses stripping nude in auditions (and then the finished play doesn't even have any nudity in it!), even directors insisting actresses have sex with them as part of being Method and if they refuse they are prudish and not willing to take artistic risks blah blah blah. These things do happen. What do we do about it? Well, not by banning nudity, but by reasoned debate about all the various issues and factors involved both onstage and off.
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Post by emicardiff on Oct 28, 2016 13:29:19 GMT
I think it's a cumulative cultural effect for women feeling exploited, as many have said the nudity situation is worse on TV and film for women and is I'd say 80% of the time feels objectifying- I personally don't enjoy that sort of nudity on any gender anyway, but I think it's fair to say women get it more.
In theatre I can't say I've noticed a great deal, and generally (not always) female nudity seems more warranted/integral to whatever is going on. I seem to have seen more naked men on stage than women (actually probably more than I have in 'real life') but my decision to spend a number of years studying gay theatre probably weighs into that. Is it always needed? no, is it as bad as the prevailing culture around women? not really.
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133 posts
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Post by whygodwhytoday on Oct 28, 2016 13:43:05 GMT
I feel this is subjective. Theatre is not a place for censorship or faux offence and outrage at something common - nudity. I'd like to think people who go and see plays tailored towards adults can stomach a bit of nudity (no pun intended) without rushing home to their laptops and writing articles along the lines of "this has to stop". But hey, if homogeneous, politically correct, magnolia theatre is your thing... But that marginalises the (often very young and green) actors who are pressured into things they do not want to do, and ignores the gendered power dynamic and the relationship between this and the problems of financial exploitation and a work culture that expects early-career actors to work for free. There is a big difference between a famous actress with loads of offers going nude in the West End, and a drama school graduate working two jobs being pressured to go nude for an unpaid pub fringe because she feels she has no other choice. The cultural attitude that if you are an actress you must be willing to exploit your body definitely influences a culture where abuse can flourish. And some directors exploit the artistic justifications for onstage nudity for their own ends. For example directors who insist on actresses stripping nude in auditions (and then the finished play doesn't even have any nudity in it!), even directors insisting actresses have sex with them as part of being Method and if they refuse they are prudish and not willing to take artistic risks blah blah blah. These things do happen. What do we do about it? Well, not by banning nudity, but by reasoned debate about all the various issues and factors involved both onstage and off. Agreed. However, this is not a sexual-patriarchal epidemic. Just because something is risque doesn't mean it's the product of exploitation. The sexual abuse in amateur theatre, I believe, should be dealt with differently, and not associated with professional theatre at all. In pop culture, pop stars are open with the fact that they objectify and sexualise themselves; it's mostly journalists who peddle this idea that female pop stars are oppressed by men. Disregarding the sexual side to this, actors need incredible self-discipline - "your body is your tool" - and all that. It sounds so crass to talk so superficially but that is part of choosing a career where you work in the public eye. Having said all that, there can never be enough safeguards and legal support for people who feel they are being exploited.
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433 posts
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Post by DuchessConstance on Oct 28, 2016 14:09:39 GMT
Agreed. However, this is not a sexual-patriarchal epidemic. Just because something is risque doesn't mean it's the product of exploitation. The sexual abuse in amateur theatre, I believe, should be dealt with differently, and not associated with professional theatre at all. I am not referring to amateur theatre as I have never worked in amateur theatre and know very little about it. I am referring to sexual abuse and exploitation within professional theatre and the professional acting industry, and that there are inadequate (or sometimes no) safeguards and procedures for complaints. For example Equity's complaints procedure and policies on handling these issues, and especially their policies on data handling and transparency, are poor. I am currently working with Equity on this. I was part of a panel with a number of female directors and artistic directors on this very subject over the summer and all agreed it was a problem, and part of a much bigger problem that encompasses other issues of financial exploitation, and class and racial representation. In my career I have personally experienced or witnessed four examples of truly shocking sexual inappropriateness/abuse, two of those times the person in question was a household name, the third a household name within the theatre world, and the fourth an unknown but artistic director of a small theatre company.
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Post by lynette on Oct 28, 2016 14:24:37 GMT
I saw Steaming all those years ago. It was v good and the nudity kinda essential. I saw Judas Kiss both times it played. Second time much better and the nudity was entertaining tho' not really essential except to show Wilde's indifference I suppose. I saw a play with Roger Allam at Hampstead where the student takes off her top, no bra and this was absolutely not needed. If anyone can act sleaze without the props Allam can so they didn't have to get this young actress's kit off at all. Just saying.
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Post by Baemax on Oct 28, 2016 15:07:09 GMT
I think too much is made of this. British people are traditionally on the prudish side, which is why nudity on stage is a big thing. If people were more relaxed about nudity there'd be less smut around. I don't think the idea of British prudishness really applies to stage work that much though. When I've talked about this subject with US theatre-going friends before, they've been stunned to report on, say, the fourth penis they've EVER SEEN on stage, while I'm thinking "how funny, I saw four penises in just one show last night". Also more generally speaking, I think people are more willing to be naked on stage than TV because the risk of being screencapped and published all over the internet is significantly less, so I don't know if we can really compare stage nudity to screen nudity. I rather agree with emicardiff about there being a cumulative effect of female nudity. When men shouting out of car windows or leering across a crowded pub or messaging you online out of nowhere or running for president of the United States make it clear they don't care about you as a person, just as a pair of breasts to ogle and a pussy to grab, anything else that reminds you of the constant sexual objectification of the female form is just wearying, even if it's only a brief moment of gratuitous toplessness in a play.
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Post by emicardiff on Oct 28, 2016 15:22:57 GMT
Indeed Baemax just yesterday I was shouted at from a passing car while out running (in, not that it mattered clothes that covered me from ankle to neck and to the wrists) those of us who dip a toe into online dating frequently get asked for naked pictures and/or asked to do sexual acts before we even meet a man, on TV we see women reduced to body parts and it just gets wearing. I'm all for the actual artistic use of the naked body as much as any other 'theatrical device' and I agree men are also objectified, just that on stage, as in life it's much much less often.
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Post by Baemax on Oct 28, 2016 15:25:55 GMT
And, as pointed out in other threads before now, when we on this very board have objectified men for being attractive, it is almost always in conjunction with talking about their talent (see: Andy Karl, Julian Ovenden, etc), so not even that objectifying at all.
(Not that I'm saying we don't really objectify men and do objectify women, just that our examples of how men can be objectified too are - in all honesty - a little weak, especially compared with the constant barrage that most if not all of the women posting here will have experienced for themselves.)
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Post by mallardo on Oct 28, 2016 15:44:06 GMT
And, as pointed out in other threads before now, when we on this very board have objectified men for being attractive, it is almost always in conjunction with talking about their talent (see: Andy Karl, Julian Ovenden, etc), so not even that objectifying at all.
Julian Ovenden may not be your best example of objectifying-the-talent.
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Post by Jan on Oct 28, 2016 16:20:29 GMT
And, as pointed out in other threads before now, when we on this very board have objectified men for being attractive, it is almost always in conjunction with talking about their talent (see: Andy Karl, Julian Ovenden, etc), so not even that objectifying at all. (Not that I'm saying we don't really objectify men and do objectify women, just that our examples of how men can be objectified too are - in all honesty - a little weak, especially compared with the constant barrage that most if not all of the women posting here will have experienced for themselves.) You'll struggle to find a single post here which you could say objectifies a woman (there was one in the Red Barn thread) but there are loads from both male and female posters objectifying male actors, and even ushers. In this little liberal enclave the former is disapproved of but the latter not so much.
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Post by danielwhit on Oct 28, 2016 16:30:11 GMT
But when is it absolutely necessary? I don't mind a bit of nudity really. As long as it's done in a proper way. I,for example hate striptease-shows and magic mike-kinda entertainment, but the nudity in Mrs Henderson, I thought was really nicely done. Also the bed scene in Love Story was done clever. (Not sure if that's the same everywhere, but in NL Jenny was topless, but her hair (It's was Celinde Schoenmaker) was covering most of her breasts anyway. I agree with you about Mrs Henderson Presents. Generally, I think I've seen more male than female nudity on stage over the years. So I was surprised at the original assertion that there was more female than male nudity anyway. There's an interesting reaction piece on The Stage, here: www.thestage.co.uk/opinion/2016/amber-massie-blomfield-we-need-more-female-nudity-not-less/
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Post by alece10 on Oct 28, 2016 18:31:35 GMT
Julian Ovenden My Night With Reg. Say no more! !!!
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Post by kathryn on Oct 28, 2016 20:14:53 GMT
I'm another one who has seen far more male than female nudity on stage. Anyone else see Song From Far Away? 80 minute play, about 40 of them naked.
I actually think that the more often you se naked people on stage, the less it becomes something tittilating. It's when you don't see nudity very often that the slightest hint of it causes a huge fuss - which is the situation we have in cinema with male nudity. It's ridiculous.
Of course nudity in theatre should not be used as an excuse for sexual harassment of actors - male or female.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Oct 28, 2016 21:25:14 GMT
I think whether you see primarily male nudity or female nudity depends very much on what kind of theatres you tend to go to.
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Post by foxa on Oct 28, 2016 22:41:24 GMT
I'm not that keen on nudity on stage because it tends to pull me out of the play. I begin worrying about the actors. Are they okay with it? Will they regret doing it? Did they work out a lot when they discovered it was required for this part? Of course, sometimes it makes sense and yada yada - but it certainly isn't a draw for me. I agree the nudity in The Elephant Man is necessary and makes sense, and I would say the same for The Effect and a v. good Romeo and Juliet I saw some years ago.As Duchess Constance mentioned there is a fair amount of exploitation. I met a young actress in New York whose acting teacher had convinced her that she had to be able to 'act with my breasts as much as my face' so she did a series of topless scenes in scene study class to perfect that.
I also hate it when actors have done nude scenes and then are ridiculed/quizzed about them. Women used to get a lot of this (RIP but Terry Wogan just couldn't get over it if an actress had done a nude scene and in interviews really couldn't move on) but I think men are getting quite a bit of it now (saw an excruciating interview with Michael Fassbender.) And I hated when Seth McFarlane did his 'I saw your boobies' song at the Oscars a couple of years ago - I suppose because for whatever reasons the actress did the topless scenes it was reduced to his adolescent reaction._ Actresses like Halle Berry and Demi Moore who had made a point of not doing nude scenes were then offered huge financial incentives which they accepted, which seemed a bit tawdry.
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Post by mallardo on Oct 29, 2016 7:44:37 GMT
Re this ^ sort of, I once had a rewrite job on a low budget action thing and was startled when the director - an established guy - asked me to insert, somewhere, a shower scene for his leading lady. Why? He wanted to see her naked. I thought he was joking but he was not. I guess I was so junior and insignificant that he felt he could tell me the truth. I wrote it (I needed the job) and it was shot although the actress (who knew exactly what was going on) went topless only, to the director's fury. Nothing like it ever happened to me again but I assume a lot of those incongruous nude scenes we see all the time happen for reasons exactly like that.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Oct 29, 2016 8:07:57 GMT
I met a young actress in New York whose acting teacher had convinced her that she had to be able to 'act with my breasts as much as my face' I wonder if the Maggie Smiths and Angela Lansburys of this world were ever given such advice.
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Post by foxa on Oct 29, 2016 9:57:48 GMT
I met an Oscar winning actress who told me that when she was young she had a nude scene. The set was supposedly cleared, and she lay down naked on the bed. She heard a click and she looked up to see a man she didn't know in the rafters taking photos. She imagined those photos were circulating somewhere.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 29, 2016 10:11:44 GMT
Re this ^ sort of, I once had a rewrite job on a low budget action thing and was startled when the director - an established guy - asked me to insert, somewhere, a shower scene for his leading lady. Why? He wanted to see her naked. I thought he was joking but he was not. I guess I was so junior and insignificant that he felt he could tell me the truth. I wrote it (I needed the job) and it was shot although the actress (who knew exactly what was going on) went topless only, to the director's fury. Nothing like it ever happened to me again but I assume a lot of those incongruous nude scenes we see all the time happen for reasons exactly like that. Reminds me of that scene in Star Trek into Darkness, when Alice Eve was shown stripping down to her underwear for no conceivable reason other than giving the guys a chance to ogle her. They then tried to justify it by saying Chris Pine was topless earlier on (in a scene where his female co-stars were also in underwear), and that they'd shot a scene of Cumberbatch in the shower that was cut for not being important to the plot... God bless Tom Hiddleston for insisting that if he's filiming a love scene he should be just as naked as his female co-stars (actually more, in Crimson Peak) but the rather unfortunate side-effect of his scene in The Night Manager with her is that Elizabeth Debicki is now being asked about his bum in interviews. The fact that she was frequently naked in the series has hardly been commented on - normal and expected as it is.
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Post by The Matthew on Oct 29, 2016 14:42:54 GMT
Elizabeth Debicki is now being asked about his bum in interviews. What is she supposed to answer about it? Unless it can play the piano or has won a Booker prize I can't imagine there's an awful lot to say.
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Post by d'James on Oct 29, 2016 15:01:54 GMT
She probably barely saw it, if at all, from where she was standing. I didn't even notice it when I was watching. It's only because it got cut out in America that it's got all this attention.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Oct 29, 2016 15:06:04 GMT
Male nudity on television merits a separate thread, maybe?
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Post by kathryn on Oct 29, 2016 22:14:17 GMT
She probably barely saw it, if at all, from where she was standing. I didn't even notice it when I was watching. It's only because it got cut out in America that it's got all this attention. Her actual answer was 'I was looking at his face'.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 22:14:45 GMT
If only we could take those separate threads and weave them into items of clothing, HG.
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