893 posts
|
Post by vdcni on Nov 13, 2018 8:19:54 GMT
Ore won but there's a lot of black celebs who have gone out early often surprisingly based on their dance ability, if they are good dancers and can stay high enough up on the leaderboard to build up a fanbase then they can go far but it does look like they might be more vulnerable early on.
However the week Seann survived the bottom two after the scandal hit he was much higher up the leaderboard so even if he ended up bottom of the vote it was perfectly possible for him to avoid the bottom two because of the combination of the judges scores. The next week he was near the bottom and went straight out. Danny was bottom with the judges this week so even if he wasn't bottom of the public vote had a good chance of being in the bottom two whatever.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 9:00:10 GMT
I wasn't disputing that there might be a bias just stating a fact that a Black contestant has won previously. I don't think to be honest any of us have suitable evidence to say whether or not that is the case.
Someone (I forget who!) asked as well about Danny's fanbase- as much as I'm sure he has a collective of fans, he's not say Ore who was on the TV really regularly beforehand or even Alexandra who is a much bigger name. So part of that will, as ever play into it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 9:43:35 GMT
It’s interesting that it’s a combination of judges scores and public vote. I like detail so immediately I’m interested to know exactly how that works. Imagine that’s a closely-guarded secret though.
Am not saying that it’s impossible for a black guy to win. But I do think that structural racism will make it consistently harder for black contestants on the show. Wasn’t there a Popbitch ‘investigation’ into when Alexandra Burke was on? I’ll google to see if I am remembering that properly and share a link if I can find it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 9:59:16 GMT
Someone (I forget who!) asked as well about Danny's fanbase- as much as I'm sure he has a collective of fans, he's not say Ore who was on the TV really regularly beforehand or even Alexandra who is a much bigger name. So part of that will, as ever play into it. Showing my age and general level of geekiness here, but Danny was one of the few contestants I actually knew (from Red Dwarf rather than musical theatre.) I lived overseas for most of my thirties, exactly when reality TV was taking off here, and (like all of us, I guess) I live in my bubble, and it doesn’t expose me to the pool of people that shows like this seem to draw from. Also, I have ADD and I get a lot of comfort from watching a really small subset of shows repeatedly, rather than new things. I’m still waiting for someone from GBBO, Drag Race, Brooklyn 99 or 30 Rock to be on a reality TV show. That would make my day.
|
|
893 posts
|
Post by vdcni on Nov 13, 2018 10:19:55 GMT
It’s interesting that it’s a combination of judges scores and public vote. I like detail so immediately I’m interested to know exactly how that works. Imagine that’s a closely-guarded secret though. Am not saying that it’s impossible for a black guy to win. But I do think that structural racism will make it consistently harder for black contestants on the show. Wasn’t there a Popbitch ‘investigation’ into when Alexandra Burke was on? I’ll google to see if I am remembering that properly and share a link if I can find it. It's actually pretty simple. The judges scores are ranked so if there are 10 contestants the top scorer gets 10 and so on down until the bottom scorer gets 1. The same happens with the public vote, the one with the most votes gets 10 and the lowest gets 1. Where it gets complicated is when there is a tie on the judges leaderboard so if two people get 39 are at the top the both get 10 points and then the next person gets 9 points (it used to be 8 points but they discovered that when you're down to 3 or 4 couples that can potentially mean the bottom with the judges would not be able to be saved. They then combine the scores to give each couple a total score. So this week the scores, with 9 couples, went 9 (Ashley), 8(Faye), 7(Charles), 6(Lauren), 5(Stacey), 5(Joe), 4(Graeme), 3 (Kate), 2 (Danny) Since it is unlikely the public vote had ties then they would have probably gone 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 Even if Danny was 5th in the public vote 2+5=7 he could have still been in the dance off as long as Kate, Joe, Stacey & Lauren all did ok and Charles wasn't bottom. Now given Charles has been in the dance off multiple times this year there is a good chance he was bottom but even then Danny could have been sixth in the public vote and still gone into the Dance off.
|
|
1,510 posts
|
Post by anita on Nov 13, 2018 10:37:39 GMT
And of course we have to believe that they are honest about the public vote don't we.
|
|
1,936 posts
|
Post by wickedgrin on Nov 13, 2018 10:47:44 GMT
I think the actual telephone voting (of all shows) cannot be fixed as it is independently regulated.
However, the vote can by hugely manipulated by the TV producers by editing, running order, costumes, choice of music etc etc. For example I was not surprised to see Graham in the dance off this week with those dreadful costumes - he was well and truly "stitched" up. I am amazed there are not more tantrums backstage (or perhaps there are) that we never hear about such as "I am NOT wearing THAT on national television!!" Some of the costumes this year are particularly hideous!
|
|
893 posts
|
Post by vdcni on Nov 13, 2018 11:00:13 GMT
Yeah after the voting scandals there was a big crackdown on it, no way it isn't correct but yes that doesn't mean there isn't manipulation within the show.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 18:28:12 GMT
Ore won and he is Black so in the interest of facts I’ll put that one up there! (When it’s not so early I’ll compile a list because it’s interesting) I don’t follow the gossip about the show so have no idea what they say or don’t about Danny. But from a viewer point of view him not appearing on ITT immediately just struck me as sour grapes/poor loser. Ore is very different to DJJ - public school educated etc. He could be seen as “one of us”. However I think the point the Telegraph is making is that people are very quick to believe that DJJ is a bully even though they have no tangible evidence of this.
|
|
851 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by longinthetooth on Nov 13, 2018 18:38:25 GMT
Ore won, Louis Smith won, Aleesha Dixon won ......
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 20:23:10 GMT
Ore won, Louis Smith won, Aleesha Dixon won ......[/quote The telegraph’s argument is more about the perception of DJJ as a bully rather than about whether or not black men can win. Often dark black men who are not public school educated are perceived in stereotypical ways (poor grammar but I am tired)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 20:33:17 GMT
Ore won, Louis Smith won, Aleesha Dixon won ...... You forgot Mark Ramprakash. Three of these winners are mixed race, which moves our discussion to questions about what level of blackness is acceptable to the Saturday evening tv audience. I was at risk of falling down an internet hole and running my own analysis of Strictly contestants. The Guardian did it for me though www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/16/black-strictly-come-dancing
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 13, 2018 21:14:32 GMT
That Guardian analysis is nothing of the sort - it is an opinion piece by two academics with an agenda to push.
"It is designed to promote family values and a sense of British national identity" - says them. There is nothing about British national identity in the format of the show - you only have to look at how it has translated to many other countries to know there is nothing essentially British about it.
They admit 'It is clearly not possible to say for certain that Strictly’s voting patterns are because of racist British attitudes.' yet go on to say 'We would suggest that Strictly and this genre of programming reflect a distinctly “British” race narrative;'
They make no attempt to show their 'analysis' - saying that it has not yet been published. But there is no discussion about the profile of the various contestants, their initial dance ability and what improvement (if any) they show or how they perform on any given occasion. It also does not appear to factor in for how prior performing experience/training is perceived.
It is interesting to note that this the only piece they have contributed to The Guardian - there was certainly no follow-up piece that put their analysis into the public arena and a quick google does not show any other publication of this analysis. Their research is cited in a Daily Mail article - but the only source for that is their Guardian piece.
It is wrong to publish an article making very specific claims out without having the methodology and data sets being available for independent review.
I am not saying that race doesn't play an issue in voting patterns. I can't say that because we just don't know what motivates people to vote in certain ways. I am sure that this could be researched and the data presented. We would then have a clearer picture.
But an article such as this does nothing to advance our understanding of what is going on. Indeed, it actually lessen our understanding because it presents unpublished/unfinished data without proper context or explanation - which means it is an opinion piece where assertions are being presented as facts - which is very poor in academic/journalistic terms.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 21:36:18 GMT
oxfordsimon all good points and eloquently put. Thanks for taking the time to write that.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 21:48:22 GMT
BAME celebs have a decent record on Strictly and Danny went a lot further than a lot of contestants. Charles has done two good dances but other weeks hasn't got the votes, Karen may not be as popular as other pros so that may not help Charles.
Could it have been an age thing with Danny and Amy as he is 58 and she is about 27, maybe he didn't like being bossed around by a much younger woman or could Amy be a bit quieter than the other female pros and Danny may have been able to be more forceful with her than he would have been with a more feisty pro dancer.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 14, 2018 16:25:40 GMT
Now it looks like he doesn't want to be back for the final show www.digitalspy.com/tv/strictly-come-dancing/news/a870580/strictly-come-dancing-danny-john-jules-wont-return-response/We have no real idea of what went on. But this isn't playing out well for him. Yes, he may well be justified in feeling aggrieved at how events unfolded. But if you sign up for a show, you see it through - and that includes the exit interviews on ITT and showing up for the final show. You put on your best professional smile and play your part. It is very easy for his post-show reaction to be seen as being a bad loser/sour grapes. It is certainly how it appears to be being interpreted. He could have changed the narrative - but it would seem that he is unwilling or unable to do so. Shame - particularly for Amy.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 17:47:17 GMT
Now it looks like he doesn't want to be back for the final show www.digitalspy.com/tv/strictly-come-dancing/news/a870580/strictly-come-dancing-danny-john-jules-wont-return-response/We have no real idea of what went on. But this isn't playing out well for him. Yes, he may well be justified in feeling aggrieved at how events unfolded. But if you sign up for a show, you see it through - and that includes the exit interviews on ITT and showing up for the final show. You put on your best professional smile and play your part. It is very easy for his post-show reaction to be seen as being a bad loser/sour grapes. It is certainly how it appears to be being interpreted. He could have changed the narrative - but it would seem that he is unwilling or unable to do so. Shame - particularly for Amy. . There is no evidence in that article that this is true, but these days we all believe everything we read. I once read an article in the tabloids about two actors who were having an affair. I knew the bloke who is gay. They were friends but were pictured “gazing into each other’s eyes” - having a laugh in other words. Regarding DJJ the damage has been done: we all now think he is a no-show and are castigating him accordingly. I am going to wait and see what happens.
|
|
18,791 posts
|
Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 14, 2018 18:53:44 GMT
He didn’t seem to take judges feedback very well. The expression on his face when they criticised him was the puzzled frown that says “I’m listening to you but I think you’re talking bollocks ‘cos I’m brilliant”. It’s the same look that Will Young had when uncle Len told him he wasn’t as good as he thought he was.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 21:36:45 GMT
He didn’t seem to take judges feedback very well. The expression on his face when they criticised him was the puzzled frown that says “I’m listening to you but I think you’re talking bollocks ‘cos I’m brilliant”. It’s the same look that Will Young had when uncle Len told him he wasn’t as good as he thought he was. I put it to you, your honour, that the interpretation of people’s facial expressions is an inexact science. I also put it to you that he may have been angry with himself rather than the judges because he may be a perfectionist. We will never know, but either way this does not necassarily make him a bully.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 14, 2018 22:14:59 GMT
I am not sure that anyone here has said that he is a bully. We have commented on the press speculation - and, I think, noted it as being speculative in nature.
It is clear that he did not make himself available for the ITT interview that all leavers normally attend. We don't know the reasons but his non-appearance is not questioned.
With all these sorts of shows, we never know what is going on behind the scenes. We do know, because she said as much, that Amy was upset in a rehearsal and left it for half an hour. We know that she returned and that they performed on Saturday night.
The rest may be the truth, partially true or completely fabricated.
However because he has not engaged with the post-show process, Danny has not used that opportunity to set the record straight or explain himself or any other course of action. Sadly the press and online comment sites abhor a vacuum and thus further speculation has been created.
|
|
2,263 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by theatreian on Nov 14, 2018 22:36:45 GMT
Yes no matter what happened Danny has not given any explanation or sought to offer any other thoughts on the speculation. He indeed has done nothing but perpetuate the speculation and I do not have much if any sympathy for him. If you sign up for a show like this then you must accept what comes along with it.
|
|
1,936 posts
|
Post by wickedgrin on Nov 14, 2018 22:47:21 GMT
If you sign up for a show like this then you must accept what comes along with it I would completely agree with this but these celebs have egos and think that they will be hugely popular, win the show and be flooded with offers of lucrative work. It never occurs to them that the exposure might be negative.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 14, 2018 22:53:48 GMT
Given his opinions on the show, I was amazed when DJJ agreed to be part of this year's competition.
|
|
5,582 posts
|
Post by lynette on Nov 15, 2018 2:45:43 GMT
Danny not doing the Monday spot makes that Seann look like a man of integrity.
|
|
5,582 posts
|
Post by lynette on Nov 15, 2018 2:54:47 GMT
Just catching up with this Guardian stuff. They say ‘the ballroom is a white space.’ I can’t say about professional or even amateur dancing competitions but for the general public I don’t think this is so. Going back we can see that the ballroom or dance hall was/is a very diverse space.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 10:16:32 GMT
I know a couple of people who know DJJ and nobody has ever spoken unkindly of him - and you know how in those circles rumours spread like wildfire - so I am surprised by all this.
|
|
530 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by jek on Nov 15, 2018 10:35:50 GMT
For those of us with children born in the late 90's/early 2000's Danny John-Jules will forever be associated with CBeebies, specifically the programme Storymakers in which he played Milton Wordsworth (other presenters were styled as Shelley, Blake, Byron, Rossetti and Webster Wordsworth). I can summon up the theme tune now without even trying.
|
|
4,458 posts
|
Post by poster J on Nov 15, 2018 10:38:57 GMT
Just catching up with this Guardian stuff. They say ‘the ballroom is a white space.’ I can’t say about professional or even amateur dancing competitions but for the general public I don’t think this is so. Going back we can see that the ballroom or dance hall was/is a very diverse space. Amateur dance competitions really are quite diverse.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 14:37:49 GMT
I know a couple of people who know DJJ and nobody has ever spoken unkindly of him - and you know how in those circles rumours spread like wildfire - so I am surprised by all this.
Danny has been in the business probably nearly 40 years and has done his fair share of conventions due to being in Red Dwarf and I've never heard anything negative about him from those. If he took himself that seriously then I doubt he would have done them. Of course being in a public and private environment can be different but he has always come across as someone without a huge ego, he may be confident but if you are a performer you often need this and he may be a bit of a natural showman.
|
|
2,302 posts
|
Post by Tibidabo on Nov 16, 2018 18:59:59 GMT
Just been watching It Takes Two. That Gethin seems like a lovely bloke, but honestly, I can think of no worse interviewer (well, barring LBC's Steve Allen, but that goes without saying.)
Surely there's another discarded contestant who could take over? Nancy Delumptio perhaps?
|
|