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Post by scarpia on Jun 23, 2020 9:21:20 GMT
I agree this is PR nonsense. The set is NOT 34 years old. The chandelier has been replaced at least 3 times already, if not more. The candelabra are not the originals either. No doubt they'll try and claim the Angel is unsafe - but then fix it! There's no new health and safety legislation that's suddenly come into render its use unlawful.
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Post by 141920grm on Jun 23, 2020 9:22:03 GMT
a matter of time before someone down the stalls ended up with a large light fitting landing in their bonce Lololol But also. A theatre needing refurbishment or ageing set pieces is no excuse to throw out a perfectly good production or re-imagine/restage bits of it (uncalled-for). Unless you're Cameron Mackintosh- then apparently it's THE perfect excuse to do exactly that. Poor Les Mis, I still think to this day...
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Post by poster J on Jun 23, 2020 9:33:30 GMT
I agree this is PR nonsense. The set is NOT 34 years old. The chandelier has been replaced at least 3 times already, if not more. The candelabra are not the originals either. No doubt they'll try and claim the Angel is unsafe - but then fix it! There's no new health and safety legislation that's suddenly come into render its use unlawful. No new legislation, no, but periodic inspections are required, and are far easier to do thoroughly when a production is closed! Reading through some of the comments on this thread you'd think treason was being committed by anyone dating to touch so much as a bolt or screw in the original set... seems like quite an alarming over-reaction to me!
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Post by scarpia on Jun 23, 2020 9:38:03 GMT
I agree this is PR nonsense. The set is NOT 34 years old. The chandelier has been replaced at least 3 times already, if not more. The candelabra are not the originals either. No doubt they'll try and claim the Angel is unsafe - but then fix it! There's no new health and safety legislation that's suddenly come into render its use unlawful. No new legislation, no, but periodic inspections are required, and are far easier to do thoroughly when a production is closed! Reading through some of the comments on this thread you'd think treason was being committed by anyone dating to touch so much as a bolt or screw in the original set... seems like quite an alarming over-reaction to me! I don't think the reaction is surprising given Cameron Mackintosh's recent behaviour. He has form in this - cf. Les Mis and the branding of the UK tour, which substantially altered the original design, as the "Brilliant Original". Meanwhile cast members who have been made redundant are the sources of the information that the orchestra is to be decimated, not random people on the Internet. I would also add that the easy way to quell this reaction would have been to give reassurance that the orchestra was not going to be halved and the design not altered. Yet the statement issued today addresses neither of those key points, which are the main concerns of that petition's which is going around and causing a stir, and which ALW and Cameron have certainly seen.
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Post by theatremole on Jun 23, 2020 10:05:16 GMT
Everything is inspected before every performance. If you've ever seen a show where the chandelier was cut, it was likely cut before the show because it failed some part of the inspection or they weren't able to repair an issue.
Wasn't the angel recently cut because it failed a safety test?
We're not talking about the set, we're talking about the physical engineering. The candelabras are on hand winches which are heavy & stiff to control, causing injuries to crew members over the years. Updating to automation is safer and will look better because they'll no longer wobble & make a lot of noise.
Very large, very heavy set pieces have to be physically pushed on. Again, dangerous and cause injuries to crew. Introducing automation makes this safer.
I don't think anyone got too upset when they upgraded the boat.
I can't comment on orchestra sizes but it's worth noting that with COVID-19 restrictons and pit size, a lot of orchestras won't be able to safely operate without reducing sizes I'm sure the Musicians Union is on it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 10:08:46 GMT
Actually I wonder if they’re setting the stage for a massive comeback for the shows 35th anniversary in October 2021. I think everyone understands work is needed to both the set and theatre and this honestly probably is the best time to start it. I can honestly see them doing a concert version for a few months towards the start of 2021 and make a song and dance out of an ‘opening night’ in a refurbished theatre with a freshly painted set, tied to their 35th anniversary.
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Post by scarpia on Jun 23, 2020 10:38:24 GMT
We're not talking about the set, we're talking about the physical engineering. The candelabras are on hand winches which are heavy & stiff to control, causing injuries to crew members over the years. Updating to automation is safer and will look better because they'll no longer wobble & make a lot of noise. Do you have certainty on the set design not being altered? Re the wobbling candelabra, this is intentional. Hal Prince's conception of the show was that the hand machinery at HMT's would be used in the production. This is why in international productions (e.g. Broadway) where the candelabra are automated, they still judder in order to recreate that specific effect. There was a deliberate choice not to have them rise smoothly, so as to recreate the atmosphere of nineteenth-century theatre. If they decide that it's no longer feasible to have this done by hand at HMT's, then I can understand that as no doubt it's expensive as well for the production, but the candelabra will never not wobble or make some noise as they're supposed to do precisely that.
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Post by cjamess on Jun 23, 2020 10:43:37 GMT
UPDATE... All cast members and orchestra members have had their contracts terminated - including those orchestra and cast members who've been with the company 30+ years. The UK tour cast and orchestra have been given the chance to reprise their roles on the tour in the WE when it reopens as a condition of closing the tour completely - this is probably why people believe the production will be changed to the uk tour set. The technical elements of the show such as the Victorian trap door system and flying system, also the theatre air con and cooling systems have become unsafe - workmen have been in at the start of this week to fix these things. Getting rid of 13 musicians however seems to be an act of greed rather than a cost cutting measure - for example they could re-orchestrate the show to get rid of 2-3. musicians if that was the case.
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Post by theatremole on Jun 23, 2020 10:43:39 GMT
I don't work for Phantom, LWT or DMT.
I have no idea what they're planning.
Also, there's a difference between deliberately planned wobble and wobbling because it can't be controlled smoothly because the mechanism needs to be repaired.
Personally, I don't want to hear the screeching and grinding of metal on metal as I'm watching a show.
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jun 23, 2020 11:36:01 GMT
Wow this is all very intriguing!! I’m going to have to start investigating via some people I know involved in the show..
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Post by 141920grm on Jun 23, 2020 12:01:32 GMT
UPDATE... All cast members and orchestra members have had their contracts terminated - including those orchestra and cast members who've been with the company 30+ years. The UK tour cast and orchestra have been given the chance to reprise their roles on the tour in the WE when it reopens as a condition of closing the tour completely IF this is true, then personally I feel it's a very bizarre way of going about things. Sure it's a nice gesture to let the tour cast reprise their roles, but at the expense of the entire cast, crew AND orchestra who were RIGHTFULLY at Her Majesty's to begin with? Couldn't they just save a round of auditions and let the new group come in at the regular cast change date next September?
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Post by scarpia on Jun 23, 2020 12:14:11 GMT
UPDATE... All cast members and orchestra members have had their contracts terminated - including those orchestra and cast members who've been with the company 30+ years. The UK tour cast and orchestra have been given the chance to reprise their roles on the tour in the WE when it reopens as a condition of closing the tour completely IF this is true, then personally I feel it's a very bizarre way of going about things. Sure it's a nice gesture to let the tour cast reprise their roles, but at the expense of the entire cast, crew AND orchestra who were RIGHTFULLY at Her Majesty's to begin with? Couldn't they just save a round of auditions and let the new group come in at the regular cast change date next September? Agreed - it's also a really awful way to treat some of the veterans who've given so much to the production. Some of those orchestra and cast members deserve(d) a proper sending off.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 12:16:40 GMT
This all stinks of something rotten going on. Feels like an exercise in getting the running costs down.
Also. Phantom announces "extended closure" certainly un-muddies the "longest running musical in the West End" battle. Les Mess moved around but continued to run in various formats. Phantom outright closes. Schonberg estate (Officers of Cameron Mackintosh LTD) gets to keep it's "Longest Running.." title.
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Post by theatremole on Jun 23, 2020 12:18:44 GMT
Crew are employed on run of performance contracts. If the show closes, their contract ends and they're out of work (no obligation for a theatre to keep staff either, just because you closed a show there's no guarantee you'll be opening the next one).
Very different for performers and musicians who are probably on 1yr contracts. If cast change is due then everyone's contract is up and there's probably clauses concerning renewals and cancelling offers. The tour cast will be on a different contract and it may well be in certain people's contract that they get first refusal with the West End.
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Post by westendboy on Jun 23, 2020 12:28:13 GMT
I've read the statement from Mackintosh. So I guess we were all overreacting to the rumours? But what has me concerned is when it says, "replace sets that have come to the "end of their natural life". This part feels a bit off to me. Does this mean that they will be replacing the old sets with replicas that look the same? Even the part where it says, "the scenic elements are coming to the end of their natural life", has me concerned. When he means "end of their natural life", does this mean they'll be given "new life" as in revived? Or just new scenic elements altogether?
If it's just repair and maintenance to the original, then that's fine. But the statement doesn't acknowledge or mention the rumours either. But the fact that like when ALW tweeted about it, Mackintosh is making this statement now must mean he is at least aware of the rumours.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 14:59:14 GMT
Surely those currently employed by the production are on furlough though? Doesn’t terminating their contract no longer entitle them to government support through the scheme? Especially as this is an industry that remains closed at the Government’s request.
And if you’ve handed notice to everyone employed, you’ve effectively closed surely? Meaning they’re planning a revival as oppose to a continuation of the same production.
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Post by woobl on Jun 23, 2020 15:26:41 GMT
You would think it would make sense to do a Les Mis and put a new production in. Less royalties etc etc...
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Post by theatremole on Jun 23, 2020 15:27:28 GMT
Until they were given notice of redundancy, the show & front of house staff were on furlough. I'm unsure but I believe everyone has now been made redundant.
The venue staff (chief LX, master carpenter, theatre management etc) are still on furlough but could also be made redundant depending on what's going to happen.
The production staff, so the stage managers, costume and sound etc are freelancers working a contract. Their contract has been ended. They are not furloughed.
The performers and musicians are also self employed so are not furloughed and have had their contracts ended.
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Post by distantcousin on Jun 23, 2020 16:57:07 GMT
I agree this is PR nonsense. The set is NOT 34 years old. The chandelier has been replaced at least 3 times already, if not more. The candelabra are not the originals either. No doubt they'll try and claim the Angel is unsafe - but then fix it! There's no new health and safety legislation that's suddenly come into render its use unlawful. No new legislation, no, but periodic inspections are required, and are far easier to do thoroughly when a production is closed! Reading through some of the comments on this thread you'd think treason was being committed by anyone dating to touch so much as a bolt or screw in the original set... seems like quite an alarming over-reaction to me! I know, right?!?!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 18:18:41 GMT
No one is saying the theatre or set shouldn’t be updated. But any updates shouldn’t result in a different experience for the audience, which it sounds like we are getting - possibly a reduced orchestra and different set pieces (not new replicas).
I agree theatre shouldn’t be a museum piece from a technical point of view, but Phantom is the sole remaining production in the west end (world?) from the 1980s. I would argue it’s culturally significant and the production the audience sees should be preserved for future audiences. Do whatever you need to the theatre and technical aspect of the show - but don’t change the end result.
Once the original production is gone, it’s gone forever. I’d much rather it ran its course and once/if business ever does truly dry up to the point that doing 8 shows a week makes a continuous loss, then they can close the original production and replace it - with a brand new production of Phantom and Love Never Dies sharing the same theatre and cast (some clever set designer can surely make the space work for both sets).
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jun 23, 2020 19:43:48 GMT
The more I read Mackintoshes statement the more it seems to suggest that they WONT just be replacing the original design with a replica.
He would state somewhere that they are rebuilding the original design and reinstalling it surely? Looks to me like he’s using this as an excuse to put in the lesser tour version and stop paying original royalties. I really hope I’m wrong.
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Post by richey on Jun 23, 2020 20:01:20 GMT
Just for clarity here, can anyone who did get to see the shortlived tour version outline what the changes were? I know the chandelier changed and the angel was gone but was there anything else?
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 23, 2020 20:05:30 GMT
Cameron Mackintosh is a billionaire, like Andrew Lloyd Webber, in Andrew’s case he wanted to move this musical into the London Palladium, Soon after it opened -but Cameron Mackintosh vetoed it, both have made a handsome fortune from this musical and more than likely still do, I’ve got no problem updating if the set is life expired, but here I can smell a rat and there is a ulterior motive to bring in a watered down version in to save money and this will look just as atrocious as the new Les Miserables does, done just to save money.
I am sorry but I don’t buy for 1 moment that because of Covid, it has allowed consultants to do a more detailed survey, that is hogwash, it doesn’t that long to do a survey and Cameron and Andrew would have had regular feedback from back of stage staff (Craftsmen) on the poor condition of the set.
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Post by westendboy on Jun 23, 2020 20:22:42 GMT
Cameron Mackintosh is a billionaire, like Andrew Lloyd Webber, in Andrew’s case he wanted to move this musical into the London Palladium, Soon after it opened -but Cameron Mackintosh vetoed it, both have made a handsome fortune from this musical and more than likely still do, I’ve got no problem updating if the set is life expired, but here I can smell a rat and there is a ulterior motive to bring in a watered down version in to save money and this will look just as atrocious as the new Les Miserables does, done just to save money. I am sorry but I don’t buy for 1 moment that because of Covid, it has allowed consultants to do a more detailed survey, that is hogwash, it doesn’t that long to do a survey and Cameron and Andrew would have had regular feedback from back of stage staff (Craftsmen) on the poor condition of the set. It is possible that they were planning to do some maintenance work on the theatre and set, even before Covid came along. But I'm sceptical about the statement as well. I want to give Mackintosh the benefit of the doubt, but given his history, I can't help but feel anxious when the statement mentions that "many of the scenic elements are coming to the end of their natural life".
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Post by theatremole on Jun 23, 2020 20:22:48 GMT
The crew are not craftsmen, they're hired to move scenery (and they're very good at it). They're not giving daily updates to the producers about the set, issues will be raised with the master carpenter and stage manager, they'll be passed along to the company manager. Anything patch-able will be patched but you reach a point where you're patching a patch.
This would be the perfect time to get the specialists in to check everything because despite regular inspections of motors etc, sometimes it's not always possible to strip something down.
Unusual Rigging are an amazing company and they're involved with the UK tour, they say of the touring set:
“Phantom is an extremely heavy show, weighing in at more than 25 tonnes,” explains Unusual Rigging’s senior project manager Simon Stone. “There’s one piece of scenery downstage that weighs eight tonnes and has to be supported by a separate mini grid secured to the building. The famous Phantom chandelier, which has to swing in a treacherous fashion over the audience, weighs 500kg alone! Plus there are a couple of huge automated trucks on stage with a combined weight of 10 tonnes. These have to be stack built and then lifted into place at each venue. I think it’s safe to say this show is no easy task.”
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Post by tom on Jun 23, 2020 20:59:12 GMT
I hate to say it as I love POTO and I don’t know if I would be back as often if things did change but theatre is a business and although in an ideal world everything would be the best that money could buy, it isn’t feasible. I know the show has long since recouped it’s investment but if it is to continue for a long time to come there need to be changes. Change is not always seen as a good thing and I think everyone realises that any changes made to this production would likely lessen the wow but change is sometimes necessary. Having said all of this, I am appalled at the way people who have been with the show for years appear to have been treated. None of us know the real story but by all accounts there’s definitely something fishy going on. Time will tell I guess.
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42ndBlvd
Ensemble
come and meet those dancing feet!
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Jun 23, 2020 22:28:23 GMT
No one is saying the theatre or set shouldn’t be updated. But any updates shouldn’t result in a different experience for the audience, which it sounds like we are getting - possibly a reduced orchestra and different set pieces (not new replicas). I agree theatre shouldn’t be a museum piece from a technical point of view, but Phantom is the sole remaining production in the west end (world?) from the 1980s. I would argue it’s culturally significant and the production the audience sees should be preserved for future audiences. Do whatever you need to the theatre and technical aspect of the show - but don’t change the end result. Once the original production is gone, it’s gone forever. I’d much rather it ran its course and once/if business ever does truly dry up to the point that doing 8 shows a week makes a continuous loss, then they can close the original production and replace it - with a brand new production of Phantom and Love Never Dies sharing the same theatre and cast (some clever set designer can surely make the space work for both sets). I don't think this would be very feasible. The sheer number of costumes for both shows would be over whelming (not including the sets!), and I don't think the wing space in Her majestys could support both shows running at the same time. They would need a bigger theatre to support this phantom-love never dies hybrid.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 6:46:33 GMT
Some new thoughts today.
Let's accept that changes are going to happen to the orchestra. Don't know if you've look into the pit or been down in there, but it's very cramped down there. To the extent the 3 keyboard players live in the Her Majesty's boxes stage left. Social distancing measures are going to be around for a long while. It's probably likely and to an extent beyond producers control that the number in the pit will be reduced. Reductions will probably be seen in the doubled instruments like strings etc. Wouldn't be surprised if percussion gets halved too. Heart breaking for those who have been with the show longer than some of the cast members will have been alive.
Again, substage Her Majesty's is quite tight. IF they're talking about changing the set, upgrades to automation from hand driven, then this is going to be a huge overhaul. The equipment driving the set in Her Majesty's is Victorian and eats up most of the space under the stage. To fit brand new automation and rigging is going to require all the antique, victorian equipment (some of the very last left in London - correct me if I'm wrong but isn't some of it listed) to be ripped out. This would be an upgrade on the scale of Theatre Royal Drury Lane's 'restoration', would take months of planning and construction. This show wouldn't reopen in 2021.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 10:02:40 GMT
No one is saying the theatre or set shouldn’t be updated. But any updates shouldn’t result in a different experience for the audience, which it sounds like we are getting - possibly a reduced orchestra and different set pieces (not new replicas). I agree theatre shouldn’t be a museum piece from a technical point of view, but Phantom is the sole remaining production in the west end (world?) from the 1980s. I would argue it’s culturally significant and the production the audience sees should be preserved for future audiences. Do whatever you need to the theatre and technical aspect of the show - but don’t change the end result. Once the original production is gone, it’s gone forever. I’d much rather it ran its course and once/if business ever does truly dry up to the point that doing 8 shows a week makes a continuous loss, then they can close the original production and replace it - with a brand new production of Phantom and Love Never Dies sharing the same theatre and cast (some clever set designer can surely make the space work for both sets). I don't think this would be very feasible. The sheer number of costumes for both shows would be over whelming (not including the sets!), and I don't think the wing space in Her majestys could support both shows running at the same time. They would need a bigger theatre to support this phantom-love never dies hybrid. That’s why I said some clever set designer would be able to eventually work it out. Given the opportunity I’m sure someone could figure it out and if given free reign to re-direct and completely overall both shows... where there’s a will there’ll be a way.
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Post by 141920grm on Jun 24, 2020 10:52:08 GMT
I don't think this would be very feasible. The sheer number of costumes for both shows would be over whelming (not including the sets!), and I don't think the wing space in Her majestys could support both shows running at the same time. They would need a bigger theatre to support this phantom-love never dies hybrid. That’s why I said some clever set designer would be able to eventually work it out. Given the opportunity I’m sure someone could figure it out and if given free reign to re-direct and completely overall both shows... where there’s a will there’ll be a way. And have both shows run as consecutive parts like in HP? Now that would be a nice challenge... preferably not given to Laurence Connor... again... unless they find a way to magically expand the Grade II* listed Her Maj's let's not give either co-producer any ideas of this sort 😂
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