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Post by Matt on Apr 8, 2024 9:14:05 GMT
Balancng sound in such circumstances can be tricky, but un-muting mics in time shouldn't be that hard in a concert setting. Seems they had a very novice sound designer/ op. These producers are taking their audiences for suckers. No I would put it down to a very minimal amount of tech rehearsals, rather than the competence of the sound engineer.
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Post by iantheknow on Apr 8, 2024 9:24:05 GMT
Cheap cheap cheap, I agree stop feeding into these scam of so called ‘West End’ concerts where the production team profess to putting on a West End show, it’s not, it’s a cheap money making scheme for both ALW theatres and these market boy producers. I could have almost predicted what was gonna be said, poor sound etc etc…… when will people learn that you’re paying good money for sub quality nonsense. Creatives and performers who work for these people should think about what this does to the people who support them. Don’t cheapen your brand by just taking the money regardless of the quality. But what do I know? Well I know not to buy into this utter scam
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Post by MoreLife on Apr 8, 2024 9:31:46 GMT
Balancng sound in such circumstances can be tricky, but un-muting mics in time shouldn't be that hard in a concert setting. Seems they had a very novice sound designer/ op. These producers are taking their audiences for suckers. I wasn't there last night, so my comment is more of a general one about what sound technicians do and how, and it is based on my experiences in an am dram context where professional sound people have been involved. Because of how technology has evolved and progressed, a lot of the mic cues (and similarly a lot of the light cues) tend to be at least in part pre-programmed, so that during the performance a sound tech person will only need to, for example, press a single button for the volume on a group of mics to be turned up simultaneously, instead of having to act manually on multiple sounds tracks at once, etc. Of course it's not just as simple as that, and there's more adjustments and fine-tuning happening live, etc. However, in order for this kind of set-up to work as smoothly and seamlessly as we typically hear on shows with a really good sound design, the sound tech team starts to attend rehearsals even before the shows goes officially into tech, so that they familiarise themselves with who is who and who sings what in the show. They'll take notes and make plans with the director and musical director, so that what is ultimately created sound-wise also matches their vision and needs, etc. Then, during the actual tech process, group numbers are often broken down and rehearsed in pieces so that mic cues and levels can be pre-adapted and the sound/light tech team end up with a very detailed map/timeline which attaches a certain set of mics being on at the same time with specific cues in the music or the script. Solo numbers are clearly easier to manage, but there still may be need to fine tune volumes to create certain effects (see Elphaba's mic typically being boosted at certain points during her big solos). After that, the final rehearsal runs of a show (and typically the first previews when those are a thing) can be used for all the above to be optimised - after all, the sound/light tech team need to rehearse the sequence of actions that form that map/timeline to have it in top shape. Very often it is also about adjusting sound levels on stage, which an audience won't be aware of, but which may help cue performers in, help with tempo issues, etc. Unfortunately, the producers behind some of these concerts are clearly skipping several ones of those steps in the process... For some of them, it's almost inevitable because, the team will only get into the theatre on the day of the concert, so there's little time for the them to adjust to the actual conditions in the space. My guess is that other issues could potentially be made up for and dealt with if these producers invested more money and had the tech team more involved during the rehearsal process and (I presume) if they had more of a rehearsal process to begin with. My impression is that they put these events together over a very short time, they get everyone in the room only in the very lead up to the event, and then there's so much to be worked on that unfortunately... a lot gets sacrificed, and quality is badly affected.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Apr 8, 2024 9:45:04 GMT
This was such a shame. I love this show and always try to catch it when it pops up, but this was the worst I've seen it. I encouraged some friends to go and ended up basically having to apologise to them and convince them that the show is so much better than this production and they should try to catch it again some other time.
The acting was largely good from where I was sitting, with the already mentioned exception. The lighting was confused, confusing and distracting. Sometimes cues were behind, sometimes they were just baffling. The direction frequently added to the confusion. I had to explain in the interval some of the keys parts of act 1 that I knew would have been missed by a newbie. The terrible sound did not help this at all - there are multiple times were the ensemble sing one line each and when you only hear the second half of every line, it's impossible to follow unless you already know the lyrics. The accidental comedy of Peter singing 'did you really hear me?' with his mic turned off was particularly ironic. No, Peter, no we did not.
I was surprised that they'd made a few changes to the dialogue/lyrics, but not in the most sensible places. Most of the changes were fine - I quite like that Peter now audibly tells Matt about him and Jason. But if you're making changes, why not address the two lines that most need to go: 'Does your father have a camcorder?' does not work in a production where you give the characters smart phones. This would be an incredibly easy fix. I cannot fathom why it hasn't been changed. And 'there's a soul of a black woman inside every gay man' also needs to go, as it has half the audience grimacing every time. These still remain.
I think what annoys me most is the missed opportunity here. This show could probably do a healthy run at TOP with the right cast, but all they've inspired is complaints and criticism (which, after that performance, they deserve). This could have been a great way to reintroduce this show to London, and to a new demographic (JLG bringing in the Heathers/B&C fans), but I doubt many people would be encouraged to see it again. Please do, if you get the chance. I promise when you can actually hear it, it's often a lovely show.
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Post by Being Alive on Apr 8, 2024 9:49:31 GMT
There are concert producers who get it right (Fourth Wall who do a lot at Cadogan Hall, and also some bigger stuff at Drury Lane and Palladium usually have decent sound, but their concerts look like they put a lot more money into them than the likes of the producers of Bare and Made In Dagenham)
These concerts do have their place, but there are too many different producers who simply are doing it as a cash grab, and they are tarnishing the companys reputation of those who do get it right, and most of the people attending have no idea it's not one production company doing all these concerts that pop up. It's really not fair on the ones who are putting the time, effort and money into ensuring the sound (the most important element of a concert!!!!) is good.
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Post by normasturban on Apr 8, 2024 9:58:03 GMT
The lack of consistency is what bothers me most.
Side Show and Bare were produced by the same company. One was a fantastic night of theatre with a couple of late mic cues but largely, a wonderful show, the other was Bare.
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Post by harlow on Apr 8, 2024 10:36:03 GMT
For my taste, I’d take a performance without blocking, without an attempt at costuming, and without lighting changes - if there was integrity to the sound. I wouldn’t mind a blank stage with all performers in rehearsal blacks just singing. If I can hear you, the material has the chance to move me. If all I am thinking about is missed cues, lighting changes and clumsy costumes - you’ve lost me before you really even get started. There was only one reason I stated past the first act and that was Laurie Kynaston’s beautiful voice - which was effortlessly moving , when I could hear it.
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Post by max on Apr 8, 2024 11:52:15 GMT
Thanks for your v interesting post MoreLife. To what extent can an experienced Sound Designer anticipate the difference that a full auditorium will make to the sound produced during Tech with a mainly empty house? Even with some of the skipped production stages you describe in these concerts, a single performance won't have a chance to tweak that actuality (other than in the panicked moment of that one performance).
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Post by BVM on Apr 8, 2024 12:20:09 GMT
I am no sound expert, but isn't it easier to piggy back into an existing sound design?
All the concerts I have seen at Drury Lane have sounded superb. And I have assumed that given they are using the same set of speakers that are in situ for Frozen, it makes designing sound for a one off concert much easier.
Do venues like The Palladium have a set of speakers installed generally? Or does every single one off event have to arrange their own? (Obviously I understand that the speakers are the very end point of a long sequence of sound provision; but having an appropriate set appropriately positioned already must make things easier).
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Post by Oobi on Apr 9, 2024 0:11:20 GMT
I have to disagree with the people saying that these things are always low-effort cash grabs. Personally, I've seen 9 concert productions since COVID: two were exceptional and deserved the label of "semi-staged" (Bonnie & Clyde, The Addams Family); four were competent, with mostly strong choreography/lighting/sound/casting (Chess, Evita, Death Note, Love Never Dies); while three felt like scams (Doctor Zhivago, Diana, Bare).
Admittedly, a 33% chance that you're going to waste ~£40 on your theatre trip is significant. On the other hand, the common denominator between the three "scam" concerts is that they were only one night, while the others ran for two or more. That might be the best way to ascertain how serious producers are.
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Post by Being Alive on Apr 9, 2024 8:53:52 GMT
You'll notice that the three the poster above says were poor were all from the same producer...
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Post by Peter on Apr 9, 2024 11:09:34 GMT
I did wonder if there would be pattern - I imagine there are varying approaches between different producers which yield very different results! I’ve only seen one concert - The Witches of Eastwick - which was top notch, so would have no hesitation seeing any future concerts produced by Jack Maple (I think?).
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Post by ruthieh on Apr 9, 2024 12:17:46 GMT
And yet it was the same people who produced Sideshow, so they can get it very right.
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Post by doornumberthree on Apr 9, 2024 12:21:47 GMT
I think some of us are looking back at Side Show with rose tinted glasses, there were a lot of sound issues there too and the god awful costumes that had the ensemble looking like a New Look clearance rail.
I feel like we have all come to expect bad quality from Lambert Jackson’s concerts, even before Side Show, we were joking about ‘if’ we would be able to hear them or not.
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Post by alece10 on Apr 9, 2024 12:51:52 GMT
I had no issues with sound at Side Show apart from a couple of tiny missed mic cues at the beginning. I've seen that happen even in long running west end shows and as this was a concert I didn't go to see pretty costumes. I went to see and hear a great cast performing a great score which is exactly what I got. Maybe I'm just easily pleased!
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Post by Being Alive on Apr 9, 2024 13:01:53 GMT
I think some of us are looking back at Side Show with rose tinted glasses, there were a lot of sound issues there too and the god awful costumes that had the ensemble looking like a New Look clearance rail. I feel like we have all come to expect bad quality from Lambert Jackson’s concerts, even before Side Show, we were joking about ‘if’ we would be able to hear them or not. Agree, we had the classic LJ problem of 'as soon as more than 3 people are singing at the same time you can't hear what anyone is saying' along with a fair number of late mic queues.
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Post by luvvie23 on Apr 10, 2024 1:11:09 GMT
Cheap cheap cheap, I agree stop feeding into these scam of so called ‘West End’ concerts where the production team profess to putting on a West End show, it’s not, it’s a cheap money making scheme for both ALW theatres and these market boy producers. I could have almost predicted what was gonna be said, poor sound etc etc…… when will people learn that you’re paying good money for sub quality nonsense. Creatives and performers who work for these people should think about what this does to the people who support them. Don’t cheapen your brand by just taking the money regardless of the quality. But what do I know? Well I know not to buy into this utter scam I hear you. I just feel sorry for the performers. As it’s not their fault. They were probably running around like headless chickens backstage. It feels like the creative team are trying to prove themselves at the expense of the performers.
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Post by bobbievanhusen on Apr 10, 2024 5:52:26 GMT
It feels like the creative team are trying to prove themselves at the expense of the performers. What are they trying to prove, when they're clearly not great at what they're doing?
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Post by Matt on Apr 10, 2024 18:15:37 GMT
I am currently on holiday so had to miss Bare, and from what I am reading, I am glad I did.
It really seems like a pattern at LP, as Bat Boy had the same sound issues, which made the show somewhat unenjoyable.
What a shame! You’d expect more from a West End performance, whether it’s a concert or a show. People pay good money for it, and these are not cheap.
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Post by bobbievanhusen on Apr 10, 2024 19:48:21 GMT
stop feeding into these scam of so called ‘West End’ concerts where the production team profess to putting on a West End show, Where did this happen? I've never seen any of these 1 off events being billed as a West End show, nor have I ever seen them referred to as 'West End Concerts' Whatever that is supposed to mean. Is the theatre in the West End? Yes. Does it have people who have been in shows in the West End? Yes. it’s a cheap money making scheme for both ALW theatres and these market boy producers How exactly is it a cheap money making scheme for ALW Theatres? They're venues that can be hired out by anyone and everyone. They charge for it. That is what they do and it's how the company makes money. The venue is not responsible for the show that is on in it. What a production company charges for tickets and what cast and cretive team they employ has absolutely nothing to do with ALW Theatres. This is the one of the first posts under your new profile name - is this your third or 4th now? and you're already bashing ALW for no reason at all.
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Post by BVM on Apr 11, 2024 12:07:20 GMT
stop feeding into these scam of so called ‘West End’ concerts where the production team profess to putting on a West End show, Where did this happen? I've never seen any of these 1 off events being billed as a West End show, nor have I ever seen them referred to as 'West End Concerts' Whatever that is supposed to mean. Is the theatre in the West End? Yes. Does it have people who have been in shows in the West End? Yes. it’s a cheap money making scheme for both ALW theatres and these market boy producers How exactly is it a cheap money making scheme for ALW Theatres? They're venues that can be hired out by anyone and everyone. They charge for it. That is what they do and it's how the company makes money. The venue is not responsible for the show that is on in it. What a production company charges for tickets and what cast and cretive team they employ has absolutely nothing to do with ALW Theatres. This is the one of the first posts under your new profile name - is this your third or 4th now? and you're already bashing ALW for no reason at all. Agree. I really don’t think any of this is the fault of ALW/LWT! Fun though it is for certain quarters to blame him for everything!
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Post by BVM on Apr 11, 2024 12:08:08 GMT
Also the concerts aren’t all terrible, they’re completely mixed.
Some of them have been fantastic.
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Post by partytentdown on Apr 11, 2024 17:26:54 GMT
Hmm this is true to an extent, but if enough people complained to the venue they would soon realise that the shows they are allowing into their venue are shoddy and potentially damaging the LWT/Palladium brand. They should be encouraging producers to be doing better. To the average audience member, they are buying tickets for a Palladium show not a Lambert Jackson show for example, so if it's rubbish then that's who they will associate their bad night out with. If I was the billionaire owner of that theatre, I'd certainly be worried by this series of complaints related to shows staged in my premium venue.
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Post by danb on Apr 11, 2024 20:07:54 GMT
Doing short runs of ‘niche’ properties is a real risk when they are beloved titles that are ‘someone’s favourite’. If I’d have been able to go, and it was as terrible as described I would be absolutely livid and going full Karen all over my socials etc and demanding a refund! Charging premium prices for what can essentially be a shoddy, under rehearsed, semi-staged table read, is just not on. Put the time & money in producers…buy that extra day.
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Post by bobbievanhusen on Apr 11, 2024 21:17:46 GMT
Go back to a concert being a concert. People stood at stands singing the music as its written. It's doesn't need staging, it doesn't need every person off book and it shouldn't be a mad rush to get all the elements together in the short time they have to get it in to the theatre. Let the score be front and centre abd the main focus of the evening. danb I didn't think it was half as bad as most people on here. Overall I enjoyed it. It was great to hear the score with an orchestra and in the original 'ppp opera' version.
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