2,533 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by n1david on Oct 3, 2019 12:59:29 GMT
Why on Earth is this chat on a theatre board? How it affects the arts? Because it's in the section "General Chat", which means "anything that doesn't fit in to any of the other categories." That's why discussion of TV programmes, films, politics, weather, food, moods, etc. takes place here. The description on the menu page says "You can talk about anything here."
|
|
|
Post by Nicholas on Oct 3, 2019 13:25:58 GMT
Why on Earth is this chat on a theatre board? How it affects the arts? Whether in or out of Europe, we will always need to be building – and repairing – bridges. Sometimes the arts can be the only way a connection can be made across turbulent waters. www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/jun/24/arts-hit-back-at-brexit-i-feel-nothing-but-rage
Ivo van Hove: Europe has always been a source of energy for my theatre company. I don’t think, being Belgian, I should stick to my own country. My identity comes from much more than that. English theatre has opened itself up to Europe and to the world: I’m an example of that, I’ve had the opportunity to work at the Young Vic and the National.
ROH: the Royal Opera, the Royal Ballet and the Orchestra of the Royal Opera House are internationally renowned, employing hundreds of artists from across the world, including many from within the EU. Opera and Ballet are both art forms with a truly global audience, rooted in European culture, and a vital part of the UK’s artistic life. We will work our hardest to ensure that our ability to enrich people’s lives through these wonderful art forms is sustained.
Rufus Norris: Our continued success depends on the free exchange of ideas, talent and creativity, and we remain committed to increasing our collaboration with friends and colleagues across the UK, Europe and around the world. After this referendum and the divisions it has highlighted, it is essential that the arts work even harder to give voice to all parts within our society. We must be fearless in using the arts as a crucible in which we come to understand who we are as individuals, as communities and as a nation.
David Lan: whatever happens, we shouldn’t accept another lie: that the cultural and artistic life of this country ever has been or ever could be separate from Europe. We’re not twins. We’re not even conjoined twins. We’re one body expressing one momentous idea about the potential of every human being to achieve individuality as part of a collective.
|
|
1,846 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 3, 2019 13:27:19 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 3, 2019 13:27:19 GMT
To understand why the Johnson Deal had to trample all over the EU red lines making it impossible for the EU to accept is to understand what could happen once the Bill comes before Parliament.
If approved by the EU an amendment will be raised requiring the Deal to be put to the Country in a referendum alongside remain during the Parliamentary approval process. (Kyle / Wilson)
The belief is that there is enough support in Parliament to support Johnson’s Deal with the amendment this time as Labour/SNP/LibDem and remain Conservatives would vote for for it.
This has the advantage to his detractors that Johnson and Co would potentially have to vote for a referendum to make sure it passes with the bonus the Johnson Government would limp along, completely impotent until after the referendum.
Therefore Johnson’s Deal had to be unacceptable to the EU, his only way forward to continue with his narrative leaving the EU was stopped by the EU and a complicit Parliament.
The machinations continue and we sit with baited breath to see if the EU reject the Deal which is the likely outcome and how Johnson gets around or agrees to the requirement to ask for an Extension as per the Benn-Act
|
|
311 posts
|
Post by olliebean on Oct 3, 2019 14:21:35 GMT
His supporters. It seems to me that Johnson's whole "thing" is to play the thwarted hero. His plans won't work and are never intended to. They're intended to get shot down by someone that Johnson can then paint as an enemy hell bent on destroying his great vision. Not only are you right, but he's scripting the part right now - anyone who says words don't matter, bear in mind how specific - one could say uncompromising - Johnson's been with his language.
Benn is "surrender". This deal is "compromise". Presumably that makes no-deal "take back control", which he can build up to if needs must. Thwarted hero? Perhaps. If you're an MP called 'uncompromising' because you demand we 'surrender', on the other hand, maybe this thug will force you into signing it, making Johnson not thwarted, but the triumphant leader who never surrendered (at, lest we forget, a "war" he rhetorically started). I think he'd prefer thwarted, mind.
Either way, then, he can call Remainers "surrenderers" (truly terrifying to employ that language) or he can bully them with this rhetoric into making him pass a deal, for fear of being painted as uncompromising at best and surrendering at worst. Either way, his script for the next week will be "Compromise or surrender". The bastard's been setting this up. When the deal doesn't go through - which it probably won't - he'll either go to the electorate claiming that one half of the opposition wants to thwart Brexit and the other to 'surrender' to the EU's demands - or he'll go no-deal, because we tried to compromise, but we'll never surrender.
The worst thing is this'll work. Even as I disagree with "compromise or surrender", I realise how effective it is. If only he'd spent as long writing Seventy Two Virgins.
To Johnson's thuggish leadership, though, we all need to say "humbug".
Not to mention the accusations of "collusion" which appear to have been completely fabricated - but presented in the press as fact, and will be accepted as such by many.
|
|
469 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 3, 2019 16:52:35 GMT
Post by Deal J on Oct 3, 2019 16:52:35 GMT
[…] The description on the menu page says "You can talk about anything here.” Don’t tell Seyi Omooba, she’ll be all over it!
|
|
2,206 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 3, 2019 17:00:16 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 3, 2019 17:00:16 GMT
My husband worked for 2 years at his company to identify and plan and lead a team implementing changes to their code for year 2000 (shop audit world-wide company). He knew what he had to do, as it was a simple case of changing the date format, and his whole team finished on time, meaning the data processing on huge mainframes continued. If he hadn’t done it THE DATA WOULD HAVE GONE WRONG. The government had a publicity campaign (we all remember the millennium bug?) and companies were clearly told what to do. Current situation - no-one (Including the government) knows what is happening 30 days from possible biggest trading change in 40 years. Good luck with that.... I get really angry when people say nothing happened at Y2K ....that’s because they got it right. It is a fact that if a programme had dates in old format it would have failed. A fact. Indisputable. Not some sort of weird myth! Didn't Italy spend a combined £7.5k on Y2K and nothing went wrong?
|
|
2,206 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 3, 2019 17:02:57 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 3, 2019 17:02:57 GMT
I could see the Tories looking to field as many Brexit supporting candidates as they can and Labour will probably have a lot of JC centric candidates in place of more centralist ones. There are about 35 MPs currently classed as independent mainly Tory and Labour so any of them with marginal seats could be very interesting especially if the sitting MP stands as an Independent. I can see a few informal deals being done where one or two parties stand aside in certain constituencies to allow the main challenger a clear run at the sitting MP. There will be no formal deals but like Tatton in 1997, a local deal was struck. Does that work?
|
|
724 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 3, 2019 17:21:32 GMT
Post by Latecomer on Oct 3, 2019 17:21:32 GMT
|
|
4,458 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 3, 2019 17:37:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by poster J on Oct 3, 2019 17:37:36 GMT
Why on Earth is this chat on a theatre board? How it affects the arts? Why can't you just ignore the thread if you're not interested (though you should be) and let the rest of us debate as we have been doing?
|
|
5,592 posts
|
Post by lynette on Oct 3, 2019 18:37:16 GMT
Frankly, this discussion thread is a lot more civilised and dare I say, intelligent, than the discussions in other places, notably the House of Commons.
|
|
4,038 posts
|
Post by kathryn on Oct 3, 2019 19:21:21 GMT
My husband worked for 2 years at his company to identify and plan and lead a team implementing changes to their code for year 2000 (shop audit world-wide company). He knew what he had to do, as it was a simple case of changing the date format, and his whole team finished on time, meaning the data processing on huge mainframes continued. If he hadn’t done it THE DATA WOULD HAVE GONE WRONG. The government had a publicity campaign (we all remember the millennium bug?) and companies were clearly told what to do. Current situation - no-one (Including the government) knows what is happening 30 days from possible biggest trading change in 40 years. Good luck with that.... I get really angry when people say nothing happened at Y2K ....that’s because they got it right. It is a fact that if a programme had dates in old format it would have failed. A fact. Indisputable. Not some sort of weird myth! Didn't Italy spend a combined £7.5k on Y2K and nothing went wrong? For the benefit of those who won’t click through to the article, no:
|
|
724 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 3, 2019 21:45:59 GMT
Post by Latecomer on Oct 3, 2019 21:45:59 GMT
So, latest theory....I hope I’m wrong and I’m sure politicians will have thought of it.....Johnson puts his “deal” to parliament. They vote for it.(like the daft Kyle thing sometime back) This means he doesn’t have to ask for extension via letter (Benn bill) as parliament have voted for a deal. Obviously the EU will not agree to this mishmash of dangerous ideas.....so we crash out with no deal? Or end up with a no deal or revoke vote at the last moment? Can I hibernate and then just wake up when all the scheming has finished? I find it soooo depressing.
|
|
311 posts
|
Post by olliebean on Oct 3, 2019 23:00:29 GMT
Doesn't the Benn bill kick in if he fails to get a deal accepted by Parliament and the EU? Bit of a huge flippin' oversight, if not!
|
|
4,631 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 3, 2019 23:09:24 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Oct 3, 2019 23:09:24 GMT
Why on Earth is this chat on a theatre board? How it affects the arts? Didn’t you know we are leaving on the 31st October.
|
|
724 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 4, 2019 7:31:36 GMT
Post by Latecomer on Oct 4, 2019 7:31:36 GMT
Doesn't the Benn bill kick in if he fails to get a deal accepted by Parliament and the EU? Bit of a huge flippin' oversight, if not! I think you are right. Apologies for the alarm.... I begin to suspect all sorts of weird and wonderful plans. Just need to remember, I think, that Johnson pretends he has some cunning plan to get round the “ask for an extension letter” as wants to bounce the opposition into giving him an election/replacing him before Oct 31st so he can claim “it wasn’t me, gov” . The EU also seem wise to his tactic and have not rejected his deal outright but are saying “we keep talking” even thought it is blatantly a C- (or F) piece of homework!
|
|
2,533 posts
Member is Online
|
Brexit
Oct 4, 2019 12:07:30 GMT
Post by n1david on Oct 4, 2019 12:07:30 GMT
So it looks like the PM's big talk is... just talk
|
|
3,084 posts
|
Post by david on Oct 4, 2019 12:26:19 GMT
|
|
4,596 posts
|
Post by Someone in a tree on Oct 4, 2019 14:09:33 GMT
It's great to see @theatremonkey getting some credit after Pattie's harsh words
|
|
806 posts
|
Post by duncan on Oct 4, 2019 14:15:52 GMT
I want Patti to make the deal that gets us out of this current farrago.
|
|
2,206 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 4, 2019 19:45:02 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 4, 2019 19:45:02 GMT
Didn't Italy spend a combined £7.5k on Y2K and nothing went wrong? For the benefit of those who won’t click through to the article, no: That is one dissenting article and from a source that could be quite biased. Google it and see what you find
|
|
573 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 4, 2019 21:14:02 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Oct 4, 2019 21:14:02 GMT
So what happens next? Will Boris ask for an extension of 1 day? Or will there be a 3 month extension, elections next month and won by him and a no-deal Brexit next month with his newly chosen majority party? Because pro-Brexit parties are still very much divided/scattered.
|
|
|
Brexit
Oct 4, 2019 21:22:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by xanady on Oct 4, 2019 21:22:41 GMT
Things can only get better...surely?
|
|
|
Brexit
Oct 4, 2019 21:55:06 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 4, 2019 21:55:06 GMT
Not in the Tony Blair sense. Johnson will be counting the PLP triggers as they mount up in the coming weeks and months knowing that the anti-Corbyn progressives (and pro Remain) are being weeded out. What they are being replaced with (Leave/Remain is another matter). But it is another HoC complexion change to follow on from the 21 former Tories and Lib Dem defections.
If there is a long game here, in both Red and Blue parties, the active membership is maj Leave, and constituency parties are making inroads vs their contrarian MP representatives. If I were Johnson I'd hang on - at constituency level, time is Brexit's friend.
|
|
573 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 4, 2019 22:24:57 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Oct 4, 2019 22:24:57 GMT
I mean "anti brexit parties" are divided.
|
|
1,846 posts
|
Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 4, 2019 22:44:32 GMT
We are most probably in a hiatus until the 19th, full of sound and fury signifying nothing
The Opposition are waiting to play their Joker which they may have to if they want to remove any doubt of a No-Deal Brexit due to the mixed messages from Johnson, will comply with the Benn-Act and still leave on the 31st.
My gut feeling is that a vote of no confidence will take place on the 21st once the Johnson strategy is in motion/understood and whether an extension or deal has been tabled.
On an election all is quiet, the numbers indicate no Party will have a majority and Johnson really needed one before, or to have left the EU by the 31st, the election will definitely not happen and leaving unlikely, therefore the Conservatives wooed by the Brexit Party are unlikely to return to the fold believing their best bet is to vote with the Brexit Party therefore reducing the Conservative chance of a majority.
The unknown is how the Labour and Lib Dem’s get on, If Labour become a Leave Party they could get a majority, if not on their own, in a coalition with the SNP / Plaid and Greens and may chance an election.
The likelihood once we get past the 31st is neither Labour and the Conservatives would want an election as the Brexit Party would weaken the Conservatives chances of a majority and the Lib Dem’s weaken Labours.
Ironically the best way forward for the Conservatives if we haven’t left on the 31st is a referendum, how the Conservatives could engineer one would be a masterclass in spin and they will likely have to influence Labour or the Lib Dems to trigger one.
The end game on Brexit is still up in the air and the only thing we know for sure is, O time! thou must untangle this, not I; It is too hard a knot for me to untie!
|
|
2,706 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 5, 2019 0:17:12 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Oct 5, 2019 0:17:12 GMT
Not in the Tony Blair sense. Johnson will be counting the PLP triggers as they mount up in the coming weeks and months knowing that the anti-Corbyn progressives (and pro Remain) are being weeded out. What they are being replaced with (Leave/Remain is another matter). But it is another HoC complexion change to follow on from the 21 former Tories and Lib Dem defections. If there is a long game here, in both Red and Blue parties, the active membership is maj Leave, and constituency parties are making inroads vs their contrarian MP representatives. If I were Johnson I'd hang on - at constituency level, time is Brexit's friend. Active labour membership is majority leave? A poll of labour members after the referendum showed 89% remain*. If true, the last few years really have hollowed out the party to an unrepresentative shell. If they are being represented on the doorstep by that group then it’s no wonder voters are being lost. *UKIP members voting 99% leave. Conservative members 70% leave, Green members 97% remain, Lib members 96% remain, SNP members 90% remain, Labour members 89% remain. Source: ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Public-Opinion.pdf
|
|
1,846 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 5, 2019 5:12:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 5, 2019 5:12:17 GMT
Sorry, my mistake, if Labour become a Remain Party,
|
|
|
Brexit
Oct 5, 2019 7:09:39 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 5, 2019 7:09:39 GMT
Not in the Tony Blair sense. Johnson will be counting the PLP triggers as they mount up in the coming weeks and months knowing that the anti-Corbyn progressives (and pro Remain) are being weeded out. What they are being replaced with (Leave/Remain is another matter). But it is another HoC complexion change to follow on from the 21 former Tories and Lib Dem defections. If there is a long game here, in both Red and Blue parties, the active membership is maj Leave, and constituency parties are making inroads vs their contrarian MP representatives. If I were Johnson I'd hang on - at constituency level, time is Brexit's friend. Active labour membership is majority leave? I agree; it shouldn't be the case and yet it looks to be the case, or it looks as if it's becoming the case - based on this highly Remain, non-suburban, strong London constituency. It is close, Len McCluskey presumably has some influence (over the union affiliates) and, from the conference, so does Corbyn. We'll know more in about 12 weeks, at the end of the trigger/selection process.
|
|
5,592 posts
|
Post by lynette on Oct 7, 2019 9:13:34 GMT
Lovely Shakespeare, Neil. Of course Willie got there before us all. Another Ref would have us in the same position as we are now. The losing side would not accept the decision. If Remain lose, they continue their battle. If Leave lose this time, they say why didn't we abide by Ref 1 so we at least best of 3. 😂
General Election only way out. The person with the working maj in HoC goes to Queen and forms a gov. Then does whatever he/she wants to do with the mandate behind him/her. This may well mean a coalition somewhere in the House. We are of course moving towards a coalition style Gov now. End of.
|
|
4,596 posts
|
Brexit
Oct 7, 2019 15:33:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by Someone in a tree on Oct 7, 2019 15:33:28 GMT
Have I got news for you starts again on friday. Yay. I'm sure lots of fun Brexit topics will be discussed!
Also, the new theme tune is fabulous
|
|