2,206 posts
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Brexit
Sept 4, 2019 18:58:13 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Sept 4, 2019 18:58:13 GMT
Today, potentially my last day in College Green, it has been an interesting Week and have learnt a lot about the process of British Government. If we go for an election I think the opposition Parties need to include in their manifesto’s another referendum as Parliament is unable to resolve the issue with at least the following options and give a foundation for us to heal the open wounds generated by the last referendum. - Leave with May’s Deal- Leave without a Deal - Remain in Europe The wording, implications and statistical gates need to be clearly defined and the result ratified not debated. The only caveat and there are rumours that the withdrawal Agreement (May’s Deal) will be resurrected and voted for in Parliament and the General Election will be after we have left the EU. We can still leave on the 31st, will be interesting to see how Johnson handles this, can he now recommend it to his Party, if he refuses he will be seen as the one who stopped us from leaving. It was mentioned earlier in the Post, who needs Theatre when we have the current Political landscape, feel like I have lived the Henry VI’s over the last week. Hang on a sec, Corbyn could be prime minister. Why would he put May's deal on the ballot paper? Get over to Brussels and renegotiate
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Sept 4, 2019 20:19:02 GMT
Somebody tweeted Theresa May today congratulating her on no longer being the worst prime minister ever
Are you having that Pat?
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1,845 posts
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Brexit
Sept 4, 2019 20:19:11 GMT
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Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 4, 2019 20:19:11 GMT
My mistake a Deal.
Ironically we could end up with May’s Deal as if the error (add conspiracy here) gives MP’s a vote on May’s Deal,can Johnson turn it down as if No-Deal is not an option, he does not have one, he has to agree as he has said we leave on the 31st no matter what.
Voting against it will mean he is responsible for us not leaving.
Not sure on the Maths m, all Tories and expelled plus a few Labour leavers should give a majority.
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Brexit
Sept 4, 2019 21:20:03 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 4, 2019 21:20:03 GMT
Hang on a minute, folks. Are we actually saying here that we don't want the right to have a say in our country's future? And that we trust politicians to do our thinking for us? This is the one vote in ages that actually feels like it means something. That we can actually affect the outcome of in a meaningful way for once. I have to say it is frustrating seeing some people say they want their MP to decide for 'us' (after a referendum), esp.when so often it is the MPs self-interest that determines how they vote. Well, that or they may have switched parties or, increasingly, been disowned by their constituencies or the party leadership.
I'm guessing we are now past #stopthecoup given Parliament is blocking the General Election proposed by the coup leader.
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4,631 posts
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Brexit
Sept 4, 2019 21:28:01 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Sept 4, 2019 21:28:01 GMT
Hang on a minute, folks. Are we actually saying here that we don't want the right to have a say in our country's future? And that we trust politicians to do our thinking for us? This is the one vote in ages that actually feels like it means something. That we can actually affect the outcome of in a meaningful way for once. I have to say it is frustrating seeing some people say they want their MP to decide for 'us' (after a referendum), esp.when so often it is the MPs self-interest that determines how they vote. Well, that or they may have switched parties or, increasingly, been disowned by their constituencies or the party leadership.
I'm guessing we are now past #stopthecoup given Parliament is blocking the General Election proposed by the coup leader.
All this stems from Theresa May calling a fatal election and promising to deliever Brexit. Uneasy lies the head, that wears the crown.
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Brexit
Sept 4, 2019 21:50:06 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 4, 2019 21:50:06 GMT
How many days ago was Owen Jones, etc urging people to drop everything, protect democracy by rushing to College Green or block their nearest bridge, or organise for a national strike in order to protest against the coup. 2 days, maybe 3? Social media stark raving bonkers - and making fortunes from it. But 3 days later it's all forgotten, lets move on to the next manufactured hysteria #cha-ching
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Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 4, 2019 22:05:28 GMT
College Green has been busy all week, a great and welcoming atmosphere on the whole.
A surprisingly large gathering in Parliament Square tonight, every day this week traffic has been disrupted, (a lovely walk over Lambeth Bridge and back over Westminster Bridge last night) also believe there have been many Demonstrations held throughout the Country.
Having been there most days the past week it has been surprising how little coverage if any it has had on mainstream media, makes me wonder what else is being overlooked.
The sadness in all this is that my focus has been on suspending Parliament for Political gain and this appears to be the case, with the hurdles to the No-Deal Bill in the Lords the Bill might not have enough time to become law before Johnson closes Parliament 2 days early on Monday.
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Post by londonpostie on Sept 4, 2019 22:20:17 GMT
I go past it as many days as not. College Green has been busy for 15 months, and on-and-off for over two years.
However, even when it's 'busy' that means 200-300 people becasue it's a small area. More often than not, the public is restricted becasue of the bloody gazebos.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 4, 2019 22:42:14 GMT
I have to say it is frustrating seeing some people say they want their MP to decide for 'us' (after a referendum), esp.when so often it is the MPs self-interest that determines how they vote. Well, that or they may have switched parties or, increasingly, been disowned by their constituencies or the party leadership.
I'm guessing we are now past #stopthecoup given Parliament is blocking the General Election proposed by the coup leader.
All this stems from Theresa May calling a fatal election and promising to deliever Brexit. Uneasy lies the head, that wears the crown. She could have tried to compromise early on, but she didn’t, when she thought she was it was basically either hard Brexit or no deal, so not a compromise at all. Leaving whilst remaining in the single market and customs union would have probably passed some time ago.
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Post by d'James on Sept 4, 2019 22:51:02 GMT
All this stems from Theresa May calling a fatal election and promising to deliever Brexit. Uneasy lies the head, that wears the crown. She could have tried to compromise early on, but she didn’t, when she thought she was it was basically either hard Brexit or no deal, so not a compromise at all. Leaving whilst remaining in the single market and customs union would have probably passed some time ago. Absolutely. The red lines were her problem. I have no sympathy. I think it easily would’ve passed soon after the referendum but now people pretend they were voting to no deal. SOME people were probably voting for that but not a majority.
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 8:31:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 8:31:11 GMT
Anyone else think Bercow is slightly enjoying being the first person, ever, to give Johnson a telling off...
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 8:35:16 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 5, 2019 8:35:16 GMT
I suspect former neighbours in Camberwell might suggest Carrrie Symonds got there earlier.
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4,588 posts
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 12:07:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by Someone in a tree on Sept 5, 2019 12:07:14 GMT
Jo Johnson.
What an earth is Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson doing to rhe party?
I suspect many MP's are keeping stum out of party loyalty.
I also suspect BJ is cut from the same Trump ridden cloth
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Post by Someone in a tree on Sept 5, 2019 12:22:55 GMT
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2,206 posts
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 16:40:54 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Sept 5, 2019 16:40:54 GMT
How many days ago was Owen Jones, etc urging people to drop everything, protect democracy by rushing to College Green or block their nearest bridge, or organise for a national strike in order to protest against the coup. 2 days, maybe 3? Social media stark raving bonkers - and making fortunes from it. But 3 days later it's all forgotten, lets move on to the next manufactured hysteria #cha-ching Incredible what you can do with a fixed term parliament act eh
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Sept 5, 2019 16:42:33 GMT
See Jo Johnson's leaving speech today? Leaving parliament not to spend more time with his family
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 5, 2019 17:10:30 GMT
Performers well know the term ‘flop sweat’, that moment when your body reacts to the sudden realisation that this is all going badly wrong.
Johnson’s last week or so personifies this.
For anyone who didn’t see his speech just now about (supposedly about) police recruitment it was like a mix of the ‘what the hell is happening’ of Carrie, the amatuerishness of Bernadette and the rapidly sinking performer who has bitten off more than he can chew of Peter Allen in Legs Diamond.
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 17:52:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 17:52:45 GMT
I'm seriously thinking of declaring "political bankruptcy" over all of this, now. As in, "I'll never align myself with any political party ever again, and visit the polls only to mark my paper 'none of the above.'" I actually cannot believe or forgive the behaviour of anybody on any side of the house any longer. Not a single member (and they are now all members to me) deserves to be where they are or are fit to run this country in any way. Yes, I'm angry now, just angry. I know the feeling!
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 5, 2019 17:59:29 GMT
Disenfranchising yourself isn’t the answer though. Or spoiling ballot papers. You just leave the decisions with the extremists on all sides who WILL vote come what may.
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Post by Phantom of London on Sept 5, 2019 17:59:44 GMT
All this stems from Theresa May calling a fatal election and promising to deliever Brexit. Uneasy lies the head, that wears the crown. She could have tried to compromise early on, but she didn’t, when she thought she was it was basically either hard Brexit or no deal, so not a compromise at all. Leaving whilst remaining in the single market and customs union would have probably passed some time ago. She could have tried to compromise early on, but she didn’t, when she thought she was it was basically either hard Brexit or no deal, so not a compromise at all. Leaving whilst remaining in the single market and customs union would have probably passed some time ago. Absolutely. The red lines were her problem. I have no sympathy. I think it easily would’ve passed soon after the referendum but now people pretend they were voting to no deal. SOME people were probably voting for that but not a majority. I don't disagree with anything of the above.
Theresa May will leave parliament at the next general election, former prime ministers do not tend to hang around. Under Theresa May's government, Boris wasn't known to be loyal and was said to be on manoeuvres all the time.
So why didn't Theresa vote against his government this week, she is leaving parliament, she disagrees with a hard Brexit and she owes Boris no loyalty.
Once again and probably for the last time Saint Theresa proves to be an invertebrate once more.
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18,777 posts
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 18:10:39 GMT
Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 5, 2019 18:10:39 GMT
Theresa May intends to stay on as an MP unless she’s had a change of heart. She looked very comfy next to Ken Clark on the back benches this week. She'll have a bit more room now too. Theresa May to stay as Conservative MP after quitting No 10 www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48611703
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 18:20:20 GMT
Disenfranchising yourself isn’t the answer though. Or spoiling ballot papers. You just leave the decisions with the extremists on all sides who WILL vote come what may. Yes, and I’m wrestling with that, but frankly I voted in a referendum and parliament is trying to overturn the result of that vote (Chuka Umunna at least having the decency to be honest about that, even if some of the others won’t). What’s the point in voting if all they’re going to do is overturn the electoral decisions they don’t like? Having a vote has always been very important to me but I’m feeling decidedly *shrug* about it at the moment.
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Post by missthelma on Sept 5, 2019 18:54:49 GMT
I'm seriously thinking of declaring "political bankruptcy" over all of this, now. As in, "I'll never align myself with any political party ever again, and visit the polls only to mark my paper 'none of the above.'" I actually cannot believe or forgive the behaviour of anybody on any side of the house any longer. Not a single member (and they are now all members to me) deserves to be where they are or are fit to run this country in any way. Yes, I'm angry now, just angry. I have had a similar feeling for a few years now. The political class is currently appalling and shame inducing in equal measure.
I have some residual respect still for Caroline Lucas despite her recent gaff. But beyond that it's a struggle to find anyone.
I will though always vote as people in the past have fought and died to get me that right. For a few years now I have voted Green which in our electoral system is a total waste of time where I live. But I've voted, even if it gets no notice taken of it. I wonder if all the 'leavers' in the advisory referendum know that feeling. Gets easier to cope with over time.
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2,206 posts
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 18:59:00 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Sept 5, 2019 18:59:00 GMT
I'm seriously thinking of declaring "political bankruptcy" over all of this, now. As in, "I'll never align myself with any political party ever again, and visit the polls only to mark my paper 'none of the above.'" I actually cannot believe or forgive the behaviour of anybody on any side of the house any longer. Not a single member (and they are now all members to me) deserves to be where they are or are fit to run this country in any way. Yes, I'm angry now, just angry. I know the feeling! I know why you are angry Jean, why is the monkey angry at this time? I reckon Jean should back Jezza if you want to leave. Corbyn led government will be leaving the EU as he can't nationalise the railways in the EU
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Post by londonpostie on Sept 5, 2019 19:03:54 GMT
I saw earlier that 25% of current Lib Dem MPs were elected as members of another party.
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Post by poster J on Sept 5, 2019 19:26:22 GMT
What’s the point in voting if all they’re going to do is overturn the electoral decisions they don’t like? Because their job is to act in the best interests of the country as a whole, not just a tranche of it. And the best interest of the country as a whole is not to create an entirely avoidable economic catastrophe by claiming people voted for a crash exit that wasn't an option on the ballot paper or a risk properly explained by those advocating leaving the EU. Parliament is entitled to correct mistaken decisions, and this is the biggest mistake in history...
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 19:49:49 GMT
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 5, 2019 19:49:49 GMT
I saw earlier that 25% of current Lib Dem MPs were elected as members of another party. 2 from Labour and 2 from the Conservatives. Given the way those parties have both become wedded to ideological purity, it’s not surprising that, despite it hurting their chances of re election, they clearly see themselves as a better fit in a broader tent. Luciana Berger, from today, was hounded by anti semites in the Labour party, so hardly surprising she left.
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 19:57:22 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 5, 2019 19:57:22 GMT
The Government is acting on the will of the people.
On analysis of the manifesto’s of all the Parties at the last election - 52% of voters voted for Parties which clearly stated that they would NOT leave without a Deal.. - 48% of voters voted for Parties which said leave on any terms.
None of this week’s shenanigans has changed that, all that has happened is the electoral majority for leaving without a Deal has been protected and is why it is important that the General Election, (which will come ) is after the will of the people to leave with a Deal has been enacted and why the opposition Parties should not give in on Monday.
At the moment we are democratically bound to leave the EU as per the referendum as both Labour and Conservatives went to the electorate on a Leave platform.
The fun starts with the proposed General Election, all Parties other than Labour are going to clearly state Leave / People’s Vote / Remain. The only one we have no indication for is Labour and their manifesto will be when we find out and personally believe it will be a People’s Vote as they are unlikely to go on a clear Remain platform.
The other thing to remember is that the Tory/DUP coalition were the majority Party, if the ERG, Johnson included had voted with their Party this mess could have been avoided and we would have left by now no matter what the other Parties did.
What I have found over the last week is that we need to be more engaged when we vote, I am undecided on which of the Remain Parties I will vote for as it will be on their Manifesto which I will read this time and the particular voting pattern to achieve Remain in my Constituency with the Manifesto being the primary driver.
The sadness in all this is the amount of time it has taken me to understand all the minutia around leaving the EU and try to make sense of it, the digging to get the above analysis has been difficult, if only it was the duty of the mainstream press to clarify rather than listen to who shouts louder or pays the reporters.
Brexit keeps on moving at a break neck speed, I have tried to minimise my involvement in this thread (wasn’t planning to post today) and keep as factual as possible as most people are understandably tired of it all and once I have digested days events.
We now move onto Monday where - The No-Deal Bill should get Royal Assent. - The request for a General Election by the Government will be heard. - A possible vote of No Confidence, with the Prorogation this will naturally move the Election after the extension is in place as per the No-Deal Bill or may not even be started as usually goes to Parliament the day after it is requested and at the moment the Governments Prorogation request will close Parliament on Monday and ironically to stop this the Government will have to eat into the Prorogation time table they have set out.
Thought yesterday would be my last day at College Green now looks as if there will be an encore on Monday as everything comes to a head and then (maybe) everyone goes to their Party Conferences.
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 20:03:32 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 20:03:32 GMT
What’s the point in voting if all they’re going to do is overturn the electoral decisions they don’t like? Because their job is to act in the best interests of the country as a whole, not just a tranche of it. And the best interest of the country as a whole is not to create an entirely avoidable economic catastrophe by claiming people voted for a crash exit that wasn't an option on the ballot paper or a risk properly explained by those advocating leaving the EU. Parliament is entitled to correct mistaken decisions, and this is the biggest mistake in history... If I believed they were simply trying to stop no deal, I might agree with you. If I thought by blocking no deal we could still get a decent agreement with the EU, I might agree with you. That’s not what’s happening here. Some people have a mighty funny idea of democracy, that’s all I can say!
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Brexit
Sept 5, 2019 20:12:35 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Sept 5, 2019 20:12:35 GMT
Theresa May intends to stay on as an MP unless she’s had a change of heart. She looked very comfy next to Ken Clark on the back benches this week. She'll have a bit more room now too. Theresa May to stay as Conservative MP after quitting No 10 www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48611703That news article is from June this year and refers to whether Ms May will stand down immediately after quitting being kicked out from being Prime Minister. It doesn't say that she won't quit in the general election.
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