4,048 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 16:34:21 GMT
Post by kathryn on Apr 2, 2019 16:34:21 GMT
Sure. One or two just "want to get it over" and think it will help consolidate. The general feeling, though, is that the way the EU responded to negotiations awoke latent concerns about both how the EU operate and more importantly, the EU's vision of federalisation. With other federal ideas like an EU army and the copyright rules legislation now approaching, they are feeling more strongly that it isn't a path they want to go down. I agree with this. Of course it was the UK’s decision to leave the EU and so this idea that the EU were just gonna bow down to its demands (like Boris seems to think!) was always ridiculous. However, the EU hasn’t handled the negotiations well either imo. This was an opportunity for them to sit back and consider why it is that there is so much distrust in amd dislike of the EU as an institution these days, and the approach it’s taking, and why there’s a rise in popularity of nationalist and anti EU parties throughout Europe. But it didn’t take that opportunity, it just doubled down, and like theatremonkey says I don’t think the public have liked what they’ve seen. Like I said earlier, I voted remain because I felt it was better to be in than out, but the EU has a lot of problems, and I do think a lot of leave voters had genuine reasons for voting the way they did that weren’t predicated by lies. Not all leave voters are part of the “I’ve got my country back” contingent. What do you think they should have done instead? Because I genuinely can't think of what they could have done differently, given the circumstances handed to them by a UK government that literally doesn't know what it actually wants out of the negotiation.
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5,599 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 16:55:13 GMT
Post by lynette on Apr 2, 2019 16:55:13 GMT
The EU knew that free movement of people was a BiG thing in U.K. and that Cameron has tried to modify this with changes to the benefit system. They also knew that many of the immigrants get to the U.K. illegally and that other member countries turn a blind eye to this and don’t help to process them or help them settle in other countries. France I’m looking at you. The subsequent crisi of people coming to Europe to Italy and Greece only served to prove the inadequate EU policies and panic, leaving these countries to sort it out themselves with minimum help. Merkel's intervention of taking a million people seemed to make the problem worse with some extreme reactions from other EU countries. Barbed wire anyone. Hungary I’m looking at you. The EU knew all this and refused to acknowledge a problem. Of course those people wan to come to the UKand preferably to London because this is where the work is and surprisee surprise they speak English and are not left in sordid campsites when they arrive. ( I know UK detention centres are not the Savoy but comparatively speaking) And despite everything the U.K. is tolerant and and allows people to get on with their lives. I’m the granddaughter of immigrants and my heart goes out to these young men who will do anything to get here. My grandparents took a similar journey. Not to mention the kids on their own. A challenge for our generation. But we are not up to it.
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894 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:03:21 GMT
via mobile
Post by vdcni on Apr 2, 2019 17:03:21 GMT
If anything the EU showed the strength of its union over ours by consistently showing its support for Ireland and making sure the deal was acceptable to them.
While our government is the one that didn't seem to care about the effect on the Good Friday agreement and had to be forced to acknowledge Northern Irish concerns. They're also happy to drag Scotland out against its will. And many Tories seemed to think they could bully the Republic into going along with us.
I noted how many people in the pro Brexit gathering continually referred to England not Britain.
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4,631 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:03:37 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Apr 2, 2019 17:03:37 GMT
The problem with having a second referendum is that on the first one was a question between;
In versus Out (Take Control)
The second I’m referendum would be, no buses with £10 billion a week for the NHS, but;
In versus Demorcracy (Take Control)
So here is the rub, when faced with no option that save demorcracy, it is a harder one for remainders to bat away.
No clause 50 will not be cancelled, no Prime Minister will ever do that, they will keep moving the goalposts.
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:06:21 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Apr 2, 2019 17:06:21 GMT
I don't understand that at all - they've responded to negotiations exactly as expected! They've done everything they can to protect the interests of their remaining member states. They've leveraged process to control the negotiations as much as possible, presented a united front, and stuck to their rules of engagement. What our side never understood is that this is less a negotiation and more simply an exercise in choosing from a menu. The EU is a treaty-based organisation and they aren't going to bend their rules simply because some upstart country with delusions of still ruling an empire demands it. Well, the UK economy is the same size as the 19 smallest EU member states. Put another way, you could replace 19 countries instead of the UK and the single market would be the same size.
It's Germany's largest export market .. there are a thousand numbers. It was a catastrophic error by Mrs Merkel to send David Cameron away effectively empty handed.
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4,631 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:06:22 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Apr 2, 2019 17:06:22 GMT
I also thought Nick Boles would have crossed the floor to join the Independent Group?
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4,048 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:17:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by kathryn on Apr 2, 2019 17:17:08 GMT
What our side never understood is that this is less a negotiation and more simply an exercise in choosing from a menu. The EU is a treaty-based organisation and they aren't going to bend their rules simply because some upstart country with delusions of still ruling an empire demands it. Well, the UK economy is the same size as the 19 smallest EU member states. Put another way, you could replace 19 countries instead of the UK and the single market would be the same size.
It's Germany's largest export market .. there are a thousand numbers. It was a catastrophic error by Mrs Merkel to send David Cameron away effectively empty handed.
But the whole point of EU membership is to pool the bargaining power of its members so that smaller economies can’t be pushed around by larger ones. That’s why we wanted to be in it, as a smaller economy compared to the US. They literally can’t allow the size of our economy to override the legitimate interests of their member states.
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:25:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 17:25:50 GMT
If we did crash out then Ireland could really suffer as a lot of their EU goods come via the UK, so we could use that as a bargaining chip if Ireland starts having shortages.
Also a lot of EU countries border none EU countries so how do they manage those borders?
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2,706 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:28:59 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 2, 2019 17:28:59 GMT
Well, May’s statement saying that she will only be talking to Corbyn is a disaster in waiting and probably the least useful option to take, Neither commands the confidence of the public and anything they try and cobble together will be seen in that light. Added to that, it appears that Scotland and Northern Ireland are ignored, does she really want the breakup of the UK?
As this gives Corbyn too much, when he has little trust from his MPs, maybe it’s a time to break the parties to create a new and more representative opposition, with wider support.
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1,912 posts
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Post by sf on Apr 2, 2019 17:29:14 GMT
Well, the UK economy is the same size as the 19 smallest EU member states. So what? Together, as a bloc, the EU is stronger than we are on our own. Their negotiators always knew it. Ours did not, and should have.
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1,912 posts
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Post by sf on Apr 2, 2019 17:30:16 GMT
If we did crash out then Ireland could really suffer as a lot of their EU goods come via the UK, so we could use that as a bargaining chip if Ireland starts having shortages. Yes, because given the last several hundred years of history, threatening Ireland is really going to be a good look for us on the world stage.
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2,706 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:30:41 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 2, 2019 17:30:41 GMT
I also thought Nick Boles would have crossed the floor to join the Independent Group? TIG do not want Brexit, Boles does.
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894 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:31:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by vdcni on Apr 2, 2019 17:31:02 GMT
And it's gone so well so far in this process.
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1,912 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:31:17 GMT
Post by sf on Apr 2, 2019 17:31:17 GMT
Well, May’s statement saying that she will only be talking to Corbyn is a disaster in waiting and probably the least useful option to take, Neither commands the confidence of the public and anything they try and cobble together will be seen in that light. Added to that, it appears that Scotland and Northern Ireland are ignored, does she really want the breakup of the UK? As this gives Corbyn too much, when he has little trust from his MPs, maybe it’s a time to break the parties to create a new and more representative opposition, with wider support.
It's worse than that. It's nothing more than a cynical attempt to con the public into making Corbyn share the blame for her own failure.
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2,206 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:35:20 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 17:35:20 GMT
Well, May’s statement saying that she will only be talking to Corbyn is a disaster in waiting and probably the least useful option to take, Neither commands the confidence of the public and anything they try and cobble together will be seen in that light. Added to that, it appears that Scotland and Northern Ireland are ignored, does she really want the breakup of the UK? As this gives Corbyn too much, when he has little trust from his MPs, maybe it’s a time to break the parties to create a new and more representative opposition, with wider support. Behave yourself. Two and a half years too late. The only sensible option
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2,706 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:01:57 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 2, 2019 18:01:57 GMT
Well, May’s statement saying that she will only be talking to Corbyn is a disaster in waiting and probably the least useful option to take, Neither commands the confidence of the public and anything they try and cobble together will be seen in that light. Added to that, it appears that Scotland and Northern Ireland are ignored, does she really want the breakup of the UK? As this gives Corbyn too much, when he has little trust from his MPs, maybe it’s a time to break the parties to create a new and more representative opposition, with wider support. Behave yourself. Two and a half years too late. The only sensible option This isn’t a step forward as, at this point, neither May nor Corbyn have any credibility. Any they had at the last election has evaporated. The electorate do have a memory, they know May’s deal is over, they also know that Corbyn has no place at the table when he is at odds with his party. Both must go before we can get anywhere.
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2,206 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:15:54 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 18:15:54 GMT
Behave yourself. Two and a half years too late. The only sensible option This isn’t a step forward as, at this point, neither May nor Corbyn have any credibility. Any they had at the last election has evaporated. The electorate do have a memory, they know May’s deal is over, they also know that Corbyn has no place at the table when he is at odds with his party. Both must go before we can get anywhere. Parliamentary party. Leader of really large political party who keeps getting elected by a landslide. You know the parliamentary party is further to the right of it's leader and you know the reasons why
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2,706 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:23:49 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 2, 2019 18:23:49 GMT
This isn’t a step forward as, at this point, neither May nor Corbyn have any credibility. Any they had at the last election has evaporated. The electorate do have a memory, they know May’s deal is over, they also know that Corbyn has no place at the table when he is at odds with his party. Both must go before we can get anywhere. Parliamentary party. Leader of really large political party who keeps getting elected by a landslide. You know the parliamentary party is further to the right of it's leader and you know the reasons why The memberships of both the Tory and Labour parties are, in fact, where I place a lot of the greatest blame. They have both supported intransigent ideologues as their leader, people incapable of reflecting anything beyond that membership. When the history is written as to how this happened and what led to the breakup of the two party system, handing the keys of government to an electorate within an electorate, one more extreme than the full electorate, will be exhibit A. I look upon anyone who is a paid up member of a political party with great distrust.
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2,206 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:36:10 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 18:36:10 GMT
Parliamentary party. Leader of really large political party who keeps getting elected by a landslide. You know the parliamentary party is further to the right of it's leader and you know the reasons why The memberships of both the Tory and Labour parties are, in fact, where I place a lot of the greatest blame. They have both supported intransigent ideologues as their leader, people incapable of reflecting anything beyond that membership. When the history is written as to how this happened and what led to the breakup of the two party system, handing the keys of government to an electorate within an electorate, one more extreme than the full electorate, will be exhibit A. I look upon anyone who is a paid up member of a political party with great distrust. I agree with you with the Conservative Party. Why do you think the Labour party membership?
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2,706 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:42:35 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 2, 2019 18:42:35 GMT
The memberships of both the Tory and Labour parties are, in fact, where I place a lot of the greatest blame. They have both supported intransigent ideologues as their leader, people incapable of reflecting anything beyond that membership. When the history is written as to how this happened and what led to the breakup of the two party system, handing the keys of government to an electorate within an electorate, one more extreme than the full electorate, will be exhibit A. I look upon anyone who is a paid up member of a political party with great distrust. I agree with you with the Conservative Party. Why do you think the Labour party membership? They elected Corbyn (I appreciate that you will disagree with my belief that this was a bad thing).
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573 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:47:16 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Apr 2, 2019 18:47:16 GMT
Can't the EU force the UK to choose between her deal or remain? Or force the UK to choose between no extension or long extension?
Why would the EU accept some short extension once again when May has no idea what will come out of it? For May to start a reconnaissance phase at this point to look for a deal should be out of the question.
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2,206 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:52:30 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 18:52:30 GMT
I agree with you with the Conservative Party. Why do you think the Labour party membership? They elected Corbyn (I appreciate that you will disagree with my belief that this was a bad thing). Ok. I was going to say, had a quick look and I think I am correct in saying the Labour Party (membership) position is quite close to yours on the EU?
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2,706 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 19:34:48 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 2, 2019 19:34:48 GMT
They elected Corbyn (I appreciate that you will disagree with my belief that this was a bad thing). Ok. I was going to say, had a quick look and I think I am correct in saying the Labour Party (membership) position is quite close to yours on the EU? That may be the case but they elected someone who has done his best to stifle that. I would hope that the price of any support would be a referendum on what they come up with; that, at least, would show an appreciation of their collective weakness.
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 19:38:34 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 19:38:34 GMT
The membership of the Tory party likely backs Brexit and I'd bet that the majority of Labour Party members back JC's views. If anything if there is a snap election these factions will look to push their candidates forward.
Vince Cable will be stepping down soon, May will likely be gone by autumn but I don't see Corbyn going anywhere soon or if he did it would be for a like minded younger person.
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2,206 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 19:43:54 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 19:43:54 GMT
Ok. I was going to say, had a quick look and I think I am correct in saying the Labour Party (membership) position is quite close to yours on the EU? That may be the case but they elected someone who has done his best to stifle that. I would hope that the price of any support would be a referendum on what they come up with; that, at least, would show an appreciation of their collective weakness. For the right reason idealistically and tactically in my opinion. Still far greater chance of an election than a referendum.
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4,631 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 19:57:27 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Apr 2, 2019 19:57:27 GMT
I also thought Nick Boles would have crossed the floor to join the Independent Group? TIG do not want Brexit, Boles does. Nick Boles supports remain, or he did in the 2016, making him compatible with the TIG.
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2,206 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 20:01:34 GMT
TIG do not want Brexit, Boles does. Nick Boles supports remain, or he did in the 2016, making him compatible with the TIG. Think he isn't joining them to show some dignity of his position
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2,706 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 20:02:07 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 2, 2019 20:02:07 GMT
That may be the case but they elected someone who has done his best to stifle that. I would hope that the price of any support would be a referendum on what they come up with; that, at least, would show an appreciation of their collective weakness. For the right reason idealistically and tactically in my opinion. Still far greater chance of an election than a referendum. Those who were seeking an election are as bad, in my book, as the ERGers and the DUP, party politics as its most disgusting.
An election is worthless at this point, absolutely worthless.
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2,206 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 20:15:59 GMT
For the right reason idealistically and tactically in my opinion. Still far greater chance of an election than a referendum. Those who were seeking an election are as bad, in my book, as the ERGers and the DUP, party politics as its most disgusting.
An election is worthless at this point, absolutely worthless.
Why is an election bad? Seems a strange comment to me
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2,706 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 20:29:19 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 2, 2019 20:29:19 GMT
Those who were seeking an election are as bad, in my book, as the ERGers and the DUP, party politics as its most disgusting.
An election is worthless at this point, absolutely worthless.
Why is an election bad? Seems a strange comment to me Because Brexit is the problem. An election isn't about Brexit but far too many other competing and contradictory issues.
The only election that would help us is a coupon election where MPs do not stand for parties but for whatever form of Brexit they support. That would bring the matter to a conclusion and, having achieved its one objective, it would then need to dissolve itself so that a party election could take place for a new parliament. You may as well just have a referendum.
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