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Nov 15, 2018 18:02:17 GMT
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Post by n1david on Nov 15, 2018 18:02:17 GMT
I was out all of yesterday and most of today. Did I miss anything? No, we're still up sh*t creek.
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Nov 15, 2018 18:05:05 GMT
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Post by NeilVHughes on Nov 15, 2018 18:05:05 GMT
I was out all of yesterday and most of today. Did I miss anything? I believe the unexpected warm start to Autumn is having an impact on retail sales, therefore the stock market, and overall confidence in the future of the UK as a trading nation.
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 18:07:09 GMT
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Nov 15, 2018 18:07:09 GMT
Although the Dutch format included quiz questions, so involved a fraction of general knowledge. (This is clearly the most important possible post on this thread today) I'm Dutch and watched the show but the Dutch format of Deal or No Deal didn't have any quiz questions. There have been several versions in the Netherlands, the one that started it had the box stuff as the final round after quiz type questions and such. On May, she keeps saying that ‘people want us to get on with it’, she does not know this at all but there is one easy way of finding out.
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 19:24:28 GMT
Post by wickedgrin on Nov 15, 2018 19:24:28 GMT
It's like a real life episode of The Thick of It!!
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Brexit
Nov 16, 2018 17:54:29 GMT
Post by anthony40 on Nov 16, 2018 17:54:29 GMT
(Regardless of how this may come across) This is NOT a political message. I don't care how you voted, all I know is that this is a mess! Embarrassingly so. On an international level. Remember when I posted this? I rest my case!
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Nov 18, 2018 22:11:59 GMT
'Sit down you disloyal twerp'... I know it was Nicholas Soames but that was funny
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Post by n1david on Dec 10, 2018 17:05:36 GMT
Well, it's all going splendidly well, isn't it?
Just as well there's nothing else significant going on in the UK to which politicians could be devoting some time.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Dec 10, 2018 18:29:14 GMT
This afternoon Theresa Mayhem secured another week or two of her PM’s salary
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 10, 2018 19:14:49 GMT
As well as Noel Edmonds (see above), another reason that we are watching a car crash is our electoral system. First past the post with a winner takes all outcome is supposed to provide ‘strong government’, which has until recently merely meant that parties without a vote majority were able to govern as though they had. Now that FPTP is failing to even do that, requiring coalitions and compromise, our ill equipped political system is collapsing in on itself.
More logical systems, where votes relate to seats, result in that need for consensus and negotiation; not getting all that you want being the inevitable outcome. The referendum was seen by some as winner takes all but that would never be a sustainable outcome so the EU, being used to consensus etc. has helped to turn the division that the vote showed into an agreement that reflects that division. They have that experience which our system has withheld from us and the outcome of negotiations shows that - not substantially favouring one grouping or another.
Politicians and many (most?) voters cannot cope with that, however, and that lack of experience in this type of politics dooms us to disaster. That the first coalition in living memory saw both participants vilified and one nearly destroyed by voters just helped to confirm to politicians that compromise would be their downfall. The horrifying percentage who would support a no deal Brexit is further proof; they would wilfully destroy the country to make a political point rather than acknowledge their weak mandate.
So here we are, no compromise, disaster beckons.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 19:32:16 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Dec 10, 2018 19:32:16 GMT
I feel sorry for Mother Theresa on this one, she is truly a rabbit in the headlights on this, overwhelmingly the people who vote Tory want to Brexit however the businesses that bank role the Tories want to remain. so hearing this news today, my first thought was that Mother Theresa will be gone by the end of the week, with the 48 votes triggered, however that would mean her replacement will still have to get their hands dirty and Boris doesn't do detail, nor get his hands dirty.
I am no Tory but agree with Amber Rudd and Nicky Morgan that there is no appetite of an hard Brexit in parliament, which is a good thing.
As Harold Wilson said "24 hours is a long time in politics", at the moment a day is an eternity.
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Post by n1david on Dec 10, 2018 19:39:31 GMT
I think it's likely that if we had a different electoral system, the Tories would have split by now into an anti-Europe and a pro-Europe grouping (who would operate in alliance for most of the time). The same split exists in Labour but to a lesser extent. Where Brexit has absolutely floundered is that we have no mechanism for cooperation across party boundaries and structuring political debate in any other way. Labour is seeking a General Election but that is meaningless when both parties have a similar position on Brexit - negotiated deal - leaving voters who want either extreme, a no-deal exit or to remain, nowhere to go.
I can't help feeling that a major realignment of British politics is underway, but it's difficult to see how that can be accomplished in our current electoral system. It's true that other electoral systems have their flaws too - see the rise of National Rally in France, or Five Star and the League in Italy. But what we have now isn't working, and it's difficult to know how it can move forward without cracking completely.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 19:40:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 19:40:01 GMT
What a mess this all is, but I suppose the biggest political decisions of our lifetime should be the most discussed, debated and scrutinised. Regardless of my political leanings, you have to hand it to Teresa May for getting this far in the process and still holding into the top job.
It’s all a BBC drama in the making - there’s something very Shakespearean about it all, with the plots, backstabbing, a lone woman at the top of her own house of cards. I don’t know that anyone else could have done better (out of the current lot) and no one is actually saying who could.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 10, 2018 19:47:41 GMT
I think it's likely that if we had a different electoral system, the Tories would have split by now into an anti-Europe and a pro-Europe grouping (who would operate in alliance for most of the time). The same split exists in Labour but to a lesser extent. Where Brexit has absolutely floundered is that we have no mechanism for cooperation across party boundaries and structuring political debate in any other way. Labour is seeking a General Election but that is meaningless when both parties have a similar position on Brexit - negotiated deal - leaving voters who want either extreme, a no-deal exit or to remain, nowhere to go. I can't help feeling that a major realignment of British politics is underway, but it's difficult to see how that can be accomplished in our current electoral system. It's true that other electoral systems have their flaws too - see the rise of National Rally in France, or Five Star and the League But what we have now isn't working, and it's difficult to know how it can move forward without cracking completely. The outcomes have been somewhat softened in other countries by the need for coalition or run off elections which do not favour extremists. My fear is that the UK system is the most prone to electing majority governments which do not have the support of a majority in the country. It’s still hypothetical but a populist demagogue with barely 30 percent of the vote could be thus elected and have sweeping powers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 20:17:17 GMT
What a mess this all is, but I suppose the biggest political decisions of our lifetime should be the most discussed, debated and scrutinised. Regardless of my political leanings, you have to hand it to Teresa May for getting this far in the process and still holding into the top job. It’s all a BBC drama in the making - there’s something very Shakespearean about it all, with the plots, backstabbing, a lone woman at the top of her own house of cards. I don’t know that anyone else could have done better (out of the current lot) and no one is actually saying who could. In agreement here. I'm in no way tory but have to recognise what she is doing given the very sh*t hand she's been dealt and the depleting, lack of support from the spineless 'politicians' around her. Whilst being in the Remain camp at heart she still had the balls to stand forward to navigate Britain through this mess of a situation; a role not many would so easily take but would happily, verbosely criticise. Part of me secretly wonders (and hopes) if she's actually martyring herself; deliberately making a hash of it, getting us into an impassible situation where the only solution would be abandon all notion of leaving the EU.
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Dec 10, 2018 20:56:00 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Dec 10, 2018 20:56:00 GMT
There has to be some reason she clings on to the role, any sane person would have resigned ages ago and left it to the perpetrators of one of the biggest cons against the British public for their own personal ambitions to sort out.
She either has an immense sense of self belief that she can deliver, or more scarily she believes that if she resigns the void could potentially tear apart our Parliamentary Democracy.
We are technically in a civil war which fortunately at the moment is being contained within the walls of Westminster.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 21:01:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 21:01:34 GMT
I doubt she’s trying to sabotage it. I’m a Labour Remainer but - like May - recognise that the majority want to leave and as a believer in democracy accept the result.
Watching everything that’s happening she’s having to deal with the EU trying to get as much as they can out of us, whilst trying to stop a coup in her own party and having to deal with the career politicians (from all Brexit stances) trying to get her job.
The first thing everyone needs to accept is Brexit is going to happen (and it amazes me people still deny it). Secondly we need to decide if we like the deal on the table or not and tell our MPs how we want them to vote.
I wouldn’t be surprised if May agreed to postpone the vote in order to do a bit of staged PR and have the EU reinforce the idea that they are not prepared to re-negotiate the deal.
We can’t have it all ways and if we don’t like the deal, hard Brexit it is. When I read the reports of what’s happening it’s like some politicians think we can leave and dictate the terms and that the EU should just do as we say.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 21:13:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 21:13:40 GMT
There has to be some reason she clings on to the role, any sane person would have resigned ages ago and left it to the perpetrators of one of the biggest cons against the British public for their own personal ambitions to sort out. She either has an immense sense of self belief that she can deliver, or more scarily she believes that if she resigns the void could potentially tear apart our Parliamentary Democracy. We are technically in a civil war which fortunately at the moment is being contained within the walls of Westminster. She clearly knows where the bodies are buried and postponed the vote so she can dig up a few skeletons as proof There’s been two coups in recent months and to survive both indicates that whilst her party are divided on Brexit, they don’t necessarily think she’s wrong to lead the party and Brexit. Yet.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 22:33:08 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 22:33:08 GMT
I always wonder why people want a job like PM, they can make much more money in the private sector or even having a public role.
Thew nearer we get to 29th March with no deal, the bigger the panic is likely to be. No doubt the people with money are already making provision as a No Deal Brexit or Catweazle Corbyn getting power.
Even the mace got waved around.
I think 28th or 29th January is a date to keep in mind as that is the last date an election can be called before Brexit Day on 29th March.
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Post by kathryn on Dec 10, 2018 22:41:38 GMT
Lest we forget, Theresa May was directly responsible for xenophobic scaremongering during her time as Home Secretary that fuelled the Brexit vote. She is responsible for the ‘hostile environment’ that has seen British citizens wrongly deported. Her own red lines for the Brexit negotiations and decision to call a general election have led to this impossible situation where she simply can’t deliver on all the promises she has made to various different groups.
She has never had a good grasp of the detail, and has always gone for the strong-sounding tabloid-pleasing headline over policies of real substance that can actually work. She was the same as Home Secretary.
She is good at putting her head down and battering it against brick walls until they fall down and she gets what she wants. But she does that when anyone else would look at a map and just walk around the wall - or even better, arrange to have the key to the door in the wall so they can walk right through.
She is not a good Prime Minister and she does not deserve your sympathy. A hell of a lot of her problems are of her own making.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 22:55:35 GMT
People may not have liked Mrs Thatcher but I'd have backed her to get a better deal than Theresa May.
Theresa's biggest mistake was calling an election last year and losing her majority, the Tory party haven't forgotten about that.
There could well be a split in both major parties or a new centralist party created. I just hope the unpleasant very hard left and right wing extremists don't gain mass support.
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Post by sf on Dec 10, 2018 23:02:53 GMT
I doubt she’s trying to sabotage it. I’m a Labour Remainer but - like May - recognise that the majority want to leave and as a believer in democracy accept the result.
I would agree with that - IF the referendum campaigns had been fought within the law. They were not, or rather one of them was not, and the evidence suggests rather strongly that the wrongdoings extend beyond what has already been uncovered. That given, as someone who absolutely respects democracy, I cannot respect this farce.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:23:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:23:21 GMT
I doubt she’s trying to sabotage it. I’m a Labour Remainer but - like May - recognise that the majority want to leave and as a believer in democracy accept the result.
I would agree with that - IF the referendum campaigns had been fought within the law. They were not, or rather one of them was not, and the evidence suggests rather strongly that the wrongdoings extend beyond what has already been uncovered. That given, as someone who absolutely respects democracy, I cannot respect this farce.
I understand your point, but it’s basically saying people were brainwashed into making their decision and as a result their free will was removed. The amount of people involved makes that assumption impossible. Ultimately we were all given the ability to research Brexit and make our own choice as to how to use our vote. We all know politicians lie. We all know campaign promises are a lie. We know not to trust the information we’re given.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:27:30 GMT
The majority of the people who voted = about a third of the electorate = about a quarter of the population of the country. It was scarcely a majority of the people who voted, let alone an *actual* majority. And I'm with kathryn - you can have empathy for the fact that May's in a really horrific position, but you can have that empathy while also acknowledging that it's a problem largely of her own making at this point and she almost certainly deserves it too.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:27:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:27:48 GMT
People may not have liked Mrs Thatcher but I'd have backed her to get a better deal than Theresa May. Theresa's biggest mistake was calling an election last year and losing her majority, the Tory party haven't forgotten about that. There could well be a split in both major parties or a new centralist party created. I just hope the unpleasant very hard left and right wing extremists don't gain mass support. Maggie has chance to have thrown her handbag at them and said ‘No Deal’ to the lot of them. I agree the election last year was a huge mistake, but it was also a huge reality check - and she kept the top job. The fact she keeps her job every time we perceive something to be a reason why she shouldn’t, suggests a hell of a lot is going on behind closed doors. I’m not a Tory supporter but I find May somewhat refreshing to the media politicians we’ve had, like David Cameron and Tony Blair. May seemingly just gets on with the task at hand and that makes her a little harder to read imo.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:29:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:29:29 GMT
The majority of the people who voted = about a third of the electorate = about a quarter of the population of the country. It was scarcely a majority of the people who voted, let alone an *actual* majority. Well by that logic you could argue the majority of people didn’t care whether remained or stayed, which actually, I think is fairly accurate!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:32:26 GMT
The majority of the people who voted = about a third of the electorate = about a quarter of the population of the country. It was scarcely a majority of the people who voted, let alone an *actual* majority. Well by that logic you could argue the majority of people didn’t care whether remained or stayed, which actually, I think is fairly accurate! Sure, you absolutely could do that. Doesn't change the fact our government wants to shut down international borders and plunge the country into economic uncertainty while telling us it's the will of the people when it's only the will of 27% of the people at best, which is disingenuous in the extreme. Also don't forget that just because people aren't on the electoral roll doesn't mean they don't care, in a lot of cases it just means they're, for example, too young to vote.
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Dec 10, 2018 23:34:15 GMT
Post by sf on Dec 10, 2018 23:34:15 GMT
I would agree with that - IF the referendum campaigns had been fought within the law. They were not, or rather one of them was not, and the evidence suggests rather strongly that the wrongdoings extend beyond what has already been uncovered. That given, as someone who absolutely respects democracy, I cannot respect this farce.
I understand your point, but it’s basically saying people were brainwashed into making their decision and as a result their free will was removed. The amount of people involved makes that assumption impossible. Ultimately we were all given the ability to research Brexit and make our own choice as to how to use our vote. We all know politicians lie. We all know campaign promises are a lie. We know not to trust the information we’re given.
Not quite the point. In the constituency where I vote, one candidate in the 2010 general election was found afterwards to have broken the rules in one piece of campaign literature. As a result, his party withdrew the whip, the result was thrown out, and we had a by-election, and the by-election was watched very closely indeed to make sure nobody crossed the line.
If we're going to apply that level of rigour to one kind of vote - to a vote whose result can be undone after a maxiumum of five years - but not to a vote on something we may have to live with for the rest of my working life and which might potentially significantly restrict where our citizenship entitles us to live, then democracy in this country is broken.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:45:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:45:09 GMT
Well by that logic you could argue the majority of people didn’t care whether remained or stayed, which actually, I think is fairly accurate! Sure, you absolutely could do that. Doesn't change the fact our government wants to shut down international borders and plunge the country into economic uncertainty while telling us it's the will of the people when it's only the will of 27% of the people at best, which is disingenuous in the extreme. Also don't forget that just because people aren't on the electoral roll doesn't mean they don't care, in a lot of cases it just means they're, for example, too young to vote. Everyone who had the right to vote was allowed to vote. Brexit is the will of the people, in the same way we accept that a government wins a majority even if only 25% of people turn out to vote. The people who didn’t vote can’t start moaning about the outcome if they chose not to participate in it. I really don’t get your point. Are the government supposed to be saying “well 27% of you voted to leave, so we’re going to do it”? Or should they be saying “well over half of you didn’t bother to vote so stop moaning?”
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Dec 10, 2018 23:53:59 GMT
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Post by n1david on Dec 10, 2018 23:53:59 GMT
Well there is an argument that the government is elected to protect and support ALL citizens, including those that are not able to vote - like young people or those who are too sick to vote - and yes, those that choose not to vote. They may choose not to vote because they don't care, or because they don't feel that they understand the issues, or because they don't think their vote counts.
It would be completely inappropriate for a Government to ignore people who didn't vote or to enact policies which only support their voters.
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Post by Backdrifter on Dec 11, 2018 0:20:42 GMT
the government is elected to protect and support ALL citizens, including those that are not able to vote - like young people or those who are too sick to vote - and yes, those that choose not to vote. Yes, and those who will be especially significantly affected by the manner of brexiting but were excluded, such as UK-based EU citizens and vice versa.
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